I think I can finally find some peace with the fact that I'm not going to be able to change christian minds by sheer force of will nor strength of invective.
This article helped me to understand what I'm up against:
The Science of Why We Don't Believe Science
***
It helps to understand why they can never understand me.
***
Of course I already knew some of this, but it's nice to see it so well laid out. I knew they were not reachable, and that it was the power of an emotional belief over an intellectual fact, but this traces out the rationale of it all better for me than I had for myself.
Why, I might as well try to 'write my name in the snow' in Siberia. From here.
So, enjoy. Talk amongst yourselves.........
Oh, and PS: Mike, this one's for you.
***************
PPS: On a related note, that of the triumph of christian religious ignorance over both intellect and common decency, here's an amazing thing.
Not in a good way.
What kind of world do they envision?
Or is that the problem, that they do not envision any world, since the bible lays it all out for them? After all, if you 'know how it all ends' then you obviously have no power to change it or affect it in any way by your personal actions... it's not up to you to make the world a better place, is it? It's up to god. And he's decided to scrap the whole project.
How utterly love-less they are.
We already know how Jesus felt about such things.... so how do you feel about it?
ReplyDeleteDying to know.
Also, you've read my post on 'Are you a pharisee?'
ReplyDeleteI recall how you dismissed the very thought that YOU might be one...
Just like all the real pharisees did in the bible.
Interesting, no?
You see Mike, I totally see you as a modern pharisee. Totally. Not insulting you, but simply telling you what I see you as. The christian in me, from long ago, sees you as a false christian. Funny, huh?
ReplyDeleteOh, you talk a good game more or less, but it's obvious that you emphatically do NOT even ATTEMPT to follow the path of Jesus Christ. You even admit that you don't even try. Because after all, none of us can be jesus, right?
Instead you follow the path of those who merely say that they do, and act the opposite. They're getting a lot more common lately. So when you read that passage about the pharisee in the temple, try to have the guts to actually read it with an open mind, and you'll see what you've actually let yourself become. Because it's not hard to see it in that passage. It's you, dude. It's you.
You see, I do not call you a pharisee to insult you. I am telling you what I can see that you indeed are, and I am telling you because I do not believe that you can see it in yourself, which is of course the very reason that you are one.
ReplyDeleteIf you could see such things in yourself, you'd take steps to not allow yourself to 'slip' in those directions. Instead, because you insist to yourself that it is impossible that you are a false follower of Jesus, and that it is impossible that you are instead following a book, the bible, as a false idol, you allow yourself to do those things, without even realizing that you are! You're so sure that you are not, it becomes the reason that you are.
Can you even see any of this?
You are wasting your time on this guy Brian.
ReplyDeleteLook at his pic. Here's a man who is trying his very best to look fearsome.
Brian, my point with the goodness remark is this, no amount of goodness a persons does will grant him / her access to heaven… Jesus said there is NONE GOOD no not one. He commanded all men every where to repent… For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
ReplyDeleteJerry ,I know you want to understand, But you don’t… I don’t worship a book nor do I pray to a book. I Worship God in Spirit and in Truth, I believe the Bible was divinely inspired and Holy men of God penned it down as the Holy Spirit moved them. I believe it is a perfect treasure and is profitable for instruction in righteousness.
You on the other hand have deceived yourself !Your version of being born again is just that,” your version.”
Look at his pic. Here's a man who is trying his very best to look fearsome.
ReplyDelete---------------------
Too funny ! Look at me everybody I’m fearsome.I thought you were smarter than that Ian.
"You on the other hand have deceived yourself !Your version of being born again is just that, 'your version.'"
ReplyDeleteSo Mike, do Jehovah's Witnesses and Branch Davidians interpret the bible correctly?
Yeah Peeb, I thought you were smarter than that.
ReplyDeleteSo Mike, do Jehovah's Witnesses and Branch Davidians interpret the bible correctly?
ReplyDelete-------------------
No!
I believe that is the 'camel-through-eye-of-needle speech.
ReplyDelete?
Why is the rich man so blind, do you think, to Jesus' words?
------------------------
Their was actually a city called needles eye in that day and it was very hard for a camel to enter into the city because the camel had to basically get down on it’s knees and sorta crawl thru the small opening that resembled the eye of a needle. Hence “eye of a needle” The rich man could get into heaven as well but because of the pride of riches it was very difficult for him to lay his riches aside. Hence he had to become as a beggar on his knees as the camel.
It is the family’s responsibility to care for their poor and elderly, and if they have no family then it is the church’s responsibility. The government voted in welfare and that was a major blessing to many as well.
which blind man?
ReplyDeleteall unbelivers are just as blind as the rich man according to the Bible.
ReplyDeleteGod, he's a closed book, isn't he?
ReplyDeleteHe's a comedy. But it's a hard one to laugh at.
So mike, what you're telling me is that you can't see it. I know. It's sad. You're doomed to go through the rest of your life self-blinded to reality and happy in your fantasy world.
A city called 'eye of the needle'... that's a good one. So of course if that's true then it totally changes what jesus meant with that sentence, huh?
I'm sure that it does... in your mind.
Why, you didn't even address my point, so convinced were you that you had defeated it with that.
How can a man get so stupid? It's really an amazing thing to me.
all unbelivers are just as blind as the rich man according to the Bible.
ReplyDelete----------
Maybe, but you're hardly a believer. You're certainly not a follower. You do not follow the examples of jesus. You follow the book. So you are an 'unbeliever' as well, mike. In fact, I care more about what jesus cared about, than you do. Now, that's a funny joke, isn't it? To you, all you have to do is blindly believe that jesus is god, you don't even have to act good or follow him. Amazing. How can you think that?
Too many people have told you that that is how to think, that's how. You've 'bought the farm.'
Their was never a man more wealthier than Solomon and he is in Heaven.
ReplyDeleteMike, I wish that I could take you around the country and lecture on the evils of blind belief. You'd make a great 'frankenstein's monster' a la 'young frankenstein.'
ReplyDeleteCan you do a soft-shoe? How do you look in spats?
Seriously, I'd love to have people see how intractible a man ca get when they are totally sure that they are right. How unable to listen to reason. How inured to logic. How very set in cement your entire position is.
It'd be more fun than a dog and pony show. More entertaining. "See the man with no brain of his own!" What a sideshow!
Their was never a man more wealthier than Solomon and he is in Heaven.
ReplyDelete------------
Yeah, whatever. Your kind needs to think it's right all the time or you'll go nuts. So be right. Even though you're as wrong as a man can be, just keep on believing that you're right.
Why even bother talking to us? You're hopelessly lost. What do you even come here for? What are you trying to prove to yourself?
So you are an 'unbeliever' as well, mike. In fact, I care more about what Jesus cared about, than you do. Now, that's a funny joke, isn't it? To you, all you have to do is blindly believe that Jesus is god, you don't even have to act good or follow him. Amazing. How can you think that?
ReplyDelete----------------------
Just in case you don’t get it Brian let me help you… You my friend are a perfect example of what Jesus taught about the Pharisee. Your comment above proves my point. You said, You care more about what Jesus said than I do. That’s the Pharisee in you talking. The Pharisee in the Bible said Lord I’m not like this sinner …I give alms, as if he cared more about giving then the sinner did. He thinks he is better than the sinner as you have shown by your many comments when you compare yourself to Christians.
If thats the way you feel about it I will never be back.
ReplyDeleteGood luck to you and best wishes.
"So Mike, do Jehovah's Witnesses and Branch Davidians interpret the bible correctly?
ReplyDelete-------------------
No!"
Will you name a group who interprets the bible correctly?
All I know mike, is that I'll keep voting for the people that aren't trying to put grandma out on the street, aren't trying to stop aid to the handicapped, aren't trying to cut necessary social programs, and aren't trying to give more money to their rich friends. And you won't. You'll be there on the other side voting against all of that, but probably not even realizing that you are, so easily do the lies of the right take hold in your already-prepared mind. And it will be you that is the one pontification about how holy you are. How 'saved' you are. Not me.
ReplyDeleteDammit Bri! You always drive the fundies away!
ReplyDeleteI was preparing a beautiful trap for him, with beautiful teeth and beautiful jaws...
If thats the way you feel about it I will never be back.
ReplyDeleteGood luck to you and best wishes.
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I'm not telling you to leave, I'm asking wny you stay. If me asing you why you stay is reason for you to leave, then you never had a reason in the first place. And yet, you've been here.
Why talk to us when we never, ever agree with you, is my question. What do YOU get out of all of THIS? Do you feel that you've 'done good' here somehow? Has coming here helped you to crystallize your thoughts? That's what I mean. I wasn't kicing you out, mike. Stop being so sensitive. I'm trying to be nice here.
I don't mean to drive the fundies away harry. They apparently can't take the heat. Not my fault. After all, it's not as if they ever had a real argument, and I guess they don't like to hear that pointed out to them at every turn. Too bad.
ReplyDeleteI was just (again!) trying to get mike to see simple logic. It's scary to him. Like a loud noise. It frightens him so, he had to run away. He's not used to it, after all.
"I was just (again!) trying to get mike to see simple logic. It's scary to him. Like a loud noise."
ReplyDeleteMike says he isn't fearful anymore, yet hell is real to him.
A fear inducing lie (hell), is better than a fear inducing reality.
Competing fears. Interesting.
Maybe fear can't be addressed by logic. What does the fight or flight mode care about sound arguments?
"Look at his pic. Here's a man who is trying his very best to look fearsome.", said I.
ReplyDelete---------------------
Mike says, "Too funny !"
Fair enough.
" Look at me everybody I’m fearsome."
Two possible responses.
1)See, I told ya.(taking him literally)
2)Trying to look fearsome is not the same thing AS looking fearsome. Reading fail, Mike.
"I thought you were smarter than that Ian."
Wow, Mike, you imagine I care how smart you thought me? Why would I? I can only imagine that you think that if you take on a parental air with me, I'll accept that you are somehow authoritative.
Heh. Get off your horse bub.
"I think that I can finally find some peace with the fact that I'm not going to be able to change christian minds by sheer force of will nor by stregnth by invective."
ReplyDeleteBrian
Maybe you should 'mind meld' with Dawkins and Hitchens and help them to realize the uselessness of their cause of which consumes their every waking moment.
Also, what you're up against, if you want to be honest, is The Spirit: and is not merely a human battle. A battle you could never win anyway; as you're not equipped.
PS. I hear that Hitchens is weakening/teetering in his atheistic 'faith' or 'beliefs'....
Hope everyone had a Happy Easter, especially ERIC AND MIKE ;)
"I hear that Hitchens is weakening/teetering in his atheistic 'faith' or 'beliefs'...."
ReplyDeleteIt never seems to occur to Christians that Hitchens isn't some kind of leader to us.
They are so 'leader' oriented. Have to be in a church with a pastor or minister or somesuch who 'guides' them on who to vote for to get political leaders who at least seem to agree with the ideology.
And of course if all else fails there's always the ultimate invisible, working-in-mysterious-ways leader, God/Jesus/Holyspirit.
But of course it's mysterious if you read the Bible to know how it works and you need to try to match how reality ACTUALLY works with this sad work of fiction.
"PS. I hear that Hitchens is weakening/teetering in his atheistic 'faith' or 'beliefs'...."
ReplyDeleteIt's possible but not probable. He's maintained the same contradictory position for years.
1. Religion is evil.
2. He wouldn't eradicate it if he had the power to do so. It has a certain je ne sais quois.
Brian:
ReplyDeleteI think that Mike cannot tell us why he is here. That being the case, your question is seen as an attack, even though the rest of us do not see it this way, especially as compared with some of your previous "rants". Furthermore, he has done so before, only to return after a while. Clearly, there must be some positive benefit to him to take part here.
P.S. Hydra has returned, but only to alert us that she has "heard?" that our "leader" is wavering. Oh, and to wish us a Happy Easter. How kind and thoughtful!
"PS. I hear that Hitchens is weakening/teetering in his atheistic 'faith' or 'beliefs'...."
ReplyDeleteIt's true - I heard the same thing last week from someone at my poker game. You see, each friday I play cards with Elvis, Bigfoot and the Loch Ness monster. I think it was Nessie who told me this.
Also, what you're up against, if you want to be honest, is The Spirit: and is not merely a human battle. A battle you could never win anyway; as you're not equipped.
ReplyDelete----------------
No, what I'm up against is the power of human stupidity. And I'll never win it, but it will be won eventually, ore we will all perish and the cockroaches will be doing the arguing about it.
And you, MI, are the poster child for that stupidity, at least for me. You love being stupid, and only wish you could infect the whole world with it.
Oh, and I don't give a rat's ass what dawkins thinks. Who the hell is he? He's nothing to me. If he were to give up against you morons, it would be understandable, since you're all so very stupid that nothing can touch it. It's diamond-hard-idiocy.
I only hope that someday your religion dies. That's the long-term goal. For humanity's sake, I hope it dies and goes the way of the dinosaur (that you people think jesus rode into town.)
Before anyone continues this tasteless and immoral Christian habit of falsifying people's death bed positions.
ReplyDelete---------------------------------
http://www.cobourgatheist.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1095:hitchens-gem-from-2007&catid=148:christopher-hitchens&Itemid=62
Yes Pboy, it's so funny how they insist that we must have leaders. It's the slave mentality they all have. They do not believe that a person can be his or her own master.
ReplyDeleteYou'd thin you'd be aboe to get just that one thing through to them, but nope.
Wanna know the last time I though about Dawkins?
It was the last time MI brought him up.
I never think of Dawkins. Never. I haven't read even ONE of his books. All I know of him is a few short articles and excerpts, and what I constantly hear about him from idiots. Er, christians. Which is of course likely untrue. However, since I don't give a good damn...
The christians are slaves to their schizoid god of wrath, hatred, egotism, and love, so they assume we all are.
Honestly, they're not merely stupid. They're perniciously ignorant. Like it's an infection that won't go away ever. A person couldn't use less of their brain if they tried consciously to never use it. A sheep is more aware.
I said dawkins, meant to say hitchens.
ReplyDeleteSee how very little I think about these people?
I really don't care. I feel badly for hitchens of course with his cancer, and with him having to endure idiots lie MI falsifying his positions *while he's dying...*
Totally tasteless of course, but what we've come to expect from the likes of her and the rest of the faithful fluffheads.
Yes, in the video we see hitchens telling us that the fact he's dying has only made him resent christianity more, and we have Morons Incorporated (MI) telling us that he's saying that he's found god.
ReplyDeleteWow.
What assholes the religious are, huh?
That being the case, your question is seen as an attack, even though the rest of us do not see it this way, especially as compared with some of your previous "rants".
ReplyDelete----------
I know, Harvey! Heck, I've practically filleted him in the past, and here all I was doing was asking why he comes here!
Him saying that he's leaving, for that, came as a shock to me.
I guess he sees it as an attack, but I can't see why exactly.
Who MI should read is Frank Schaeffer. Son of C. Everett Koop, and one of the founders of the religious right movement.
ReplyDeleteHe 'saw the light' and is against it all now, and isn't afraid to tell us why. He's still a christian, too. Not an atheist. He just realized that the movement in part begun by his family, is totally wrong and un-christian!
And MI is one of them.
So she should really read his story. Not that she will of course, for that would be asking questions and she isn't capable of that, but still......
Mike says he isn't fearful anymore, yet hell is real to him.
ReplyDelete----------
Yeah, he's not afraid because he 'knows' that he's not going there now.
And in that knowledge he is freed up to do whatever sin he feels like doing. Because after all, he's a 'made man' now. He's in.
Y'see there was a city named 'Needle's eye' and everyone had to enter and leave through one tiny doorway.
ReplyDeleteJesus says," "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." The young man became sad and was unwilling to do this. Jesus then spoke this response, "...I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
So, is Jesus talking about disposing of one's riches when he makes the camel/eye of needle statement, or is he talking about rich men bending at the knees because the door is small?
Context, context, context.
I think one of the contexts missed about modern Christianity is that in essence, being born again is a free pass. Since good works aren't critical to whether a born agin'er gets to go to heaven, they can be born again and then dig in with both hands like good greedy capitalists. You see this alot in the big box churches.
ReplyDeleteExactly my point, Pliny. It's a free pass. And it shows. By their subsequent actions.
ReplyDeleteIt shows by what total assholes they can let themselves become all in the name of the lord.
This is one of the many ways that it is apparent to the most casual of secular observer that there is nothing genuinely spiritual about being 'born again.' If there was anything to it, the event would mark a point in a person's life where he satarted to act in a more loving and selfless manner. Instead, we get the opposite. Like Mike. Or MI. Self-centered, self-important, authoritarian, egotistical people are the end result, almost invariably.
Remove the doubt about getting into heaven, and in that moral system based entirely on the coercive effect of the threat of hell, of course you get 'born-again' people that feel they are finally free to be that inner asshole they always wanted to be.
No wonder it feels so great. No wonder it is such a rush. I mean, really. The fear is gone, replaced by a hugely inflated ego. Great.
Hey, ya know what's really unattractive in a person?
ReplyDeleteRighteous indignation.
And I get sooooo much of that from my christian friends. Oh, it's not their fault. It comes from the example set by their god (the father.)
A schizophrenic religion, requires a schism in their god. So hence we get god the father the evil asshole, and god the son gentle jesus meek and mild.
What a mindfuck!
So, is Jesus talking about disposing of one's riches when he makes the camel/eye of needle statement, or is he talking about rich men bending at the knees because the door is small?
ReplyDeleteContext, context, context.
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Yeah, I imagine meetings in dark rooms with people talking about how they can 'spin' jesus.
And they do it. Not good enough to fool the sane, but then again, they don't have to.
AS IF you can take that story to mean a low doorway into a city. As if. Unbelievable. They'll do anything to not see what jesus really said.
All ego. All pride.
NEW REPUBLICAN TALKKING POINT ALERT:
ReplyDelete!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ooh, you're all gonna love this one!
Guess what Fox News and other conservative "news" sources are saying now?
Gee whiz, apparently those damned liberals are all really pissed off that there were celebrations and chants of 'USA! USA!' at the death of Obama!!!!!!! FoXNation Website reads "Liberals Sickened By USA! USA! Chant"
AM I? WAS I? GOLLY, I DIDN'T KNOW THAT! GEE THANKS FOX NEWS! I'D HAVE NEVER GUESSED THAT I WAS SUCH AN UNPATRIOTIC ASSHOLE!
These people... I'm nonviolent, but.... Sometimes.... grrr....... I'd think they were actually actively satanic if I were religious myself. They're so very good at the 'evil' thing.
MI, Observant:
ReplyDeleteIf you're still here.
If you see somewhere that liberals are 'sickened' by chants of 'USA! USA' and believe it, you are total fucking morons. Just saying.
AS IF!
"FoXNation Website reads 'Liberals Sickened By USA! USA! Chant'"
ReplyDeleteOy vey. I introduce to you an oxymoron, 'partisan fact.' May it catch on and be used as a friendly weapon.
I said 'death of Obama' didn't I?
ReplyDeleteShit, I keep doing that. Why did he have to have a name only one letter off from the world's most sinister terrorist?
You knew who I meant...
At least it does make 'obama got osama' a catchy chant.
I feel justified now!
ReplyDeleteJon Stewart just said 'Obama' instead of 'Osama,' said 'dammit!' and pulled out an "Obama/Osama Flub Jar" half full of change and put a quarter in it.
Cute.
Funny how 'The Daily Show' followed my script there.
ReplyDeleteI don't know anyone upset over chants of "USA, USA". I do, however, know a few people who think it odd that so many people would be jubilent over death.
ReplyDeleteI'm gad the piece of shit is dead. But, I doubt I have a "Dead terrorist figure head party".
I also wonder how well cheering over his death will play out in places that looked up to BinLaden. I know seeing our guys beheaded on Al Jazeera makes most of us uncomfortable, to say the least.
And, besides, it's not like the war is suddenly over. We haven't eradicated terrorism with his death. It reminds me of a good ball player on a shitty team who celebrates his solo homerun when his team is down 15 to 1 - it doesn't really affect the outcome of the game !
Just like Cool guys don't look at explosions , real tough guys don't celebrate killing a man.
I certainly agree that it is not appropriate to celebrate the killing of a man, but is it still wrong to celebrate our being able to accomplish killing this particular man, as regards the administration of justice? To celebrate not so much his death but his end, if you will? Or am I semantically fooling myself?
ReplyDeleteI am all over the map on this one. I commend everyone evolved in this action of getting rid of bin Laden. In that sense I feel good, and think we did the right thing. In fact I would have favored sending his body into a live volcano rather than a decent religious burial. At the same time my feelings often shifted to being very sad. When Russia was attacking Afghanistan bin Laden was there with his money, and fought on the front lines with the people against Russia. Maybe Russia could have won except for bin Laden so I understand why they would not consider turning him over to the USA after 911. He was a genuine hero to the Afganies, and I do admire what he did for them. I do not have the faintest idea where he went off the end and went crazy. He surly was insane with the suicide bombing that claimed victims both of the bomber and the victims, so I agree that he had to go. An unmistakable organized religion disaster that happens when people have sold their soul to their religions beliefs. A very sad event over all. Celebration was completely out of the question for me, but I can understand, and do not disagree with those that did.
ReplyDeleteWell, they went there to get him and they got him.
ReplyDeleteYAY!
Now bring the soldiers home.
Oh wait. Don't want everyone to find out that there's plenty money still being spent in Iraq. Better that they think that we're doing something altruistic.
testing
ReplyDeleteWhat are you testing?
ReplyDeleteI've been googling 'eye of the needle' in the context of a biblical city, and what I get are a bunch of sites talking about it as if it were fact, and then serious scholorly sites that show that it is one of several kinds of attempts to water down jesus' statement about getting into heaven if you're rich.
ReplyDeleteAnd of course it is. That much is obvious to anyone who is an adult in the world.
Another one is trying to translate the word 'camel' as 'rope' as in a rope going through the eye of a needle. Which is still impossible btw... But seemingly of lesser dificulty, I guess?
The pharisees will do anything to deny the real words. They lie to themselves first, and then to us. So when they lie, they aren't even aware of it.
Getting to keep their wealth AND getting into heaven, just feels too 'right' to them to be wrong. They feel they deserve no less.
I commented 'testing' 'cos I wrote a comment and it disappeared into cyber-space and told me that my cookies had been disabled.
ReplyDeleteThat's annoying.
I hear that. I understand the word hell refers to the garbage dump in Jerusalem. It must be real hell trying to create stories to go along with false beliefs. Hard to understand because the truth will always come out, sooner or later. I find great sadness in these stories because they catch so many unaware people that not only believe them, they kill over them. bin Laden was a real example.
ReplyDeleteYea, Brian, of course they have a couple of little stories by which Jesus is simply speaking allegorically or whatnot.
ReplyDeleteThey know that there is no way they can ACTUALLY reconcile their wealth with their religion, so they make it so they can read Jesus story, be suitably puzzled, hear a couple of other stories about camels not really being camels and needle's eyes not really meaning needle's eyes and this comforts them, much like the young rich man in the Gospel story would be comforted if Jesus had actually been speaking 'in metaphor' instead of telling him he was totally screwed.
Notice how, in the story, everyone is a bit upset that they can't be stinking rich, basically high up on the ladder of(the hierarchy) success, on Earth, and imagine that this is NOT how this is a reflection of their status in Heaven.
It's so silly, really...
ReplyDeleteTo even try to change the obvious meaning of the story, is such a transparent and pathetic attempt.
How on earth CAN that story, in the fullness of its context, mean ANYTHING else?
It's obvious how dissappointed the rich person is, and how he dislikes what jesus is saying. That's the whole point of it.
If I followed a god that literally tells me on paper in his book that many people that believe they are good christians, are not, and illustrates this copiously with easy-to-follow stories about such people, then the very next think in my head would be "Shit, I'd better look into whether he's speaking about ME!"
Watched the extended interview of David Barton by Jon Stewart.
ReplyDelete(sigh)
Seems to me that Barton is the typical 'bandier-of-words', willing to explain that the idea of America as a Christian Nation, simply means that it was founded on largely Christian principles, knowing full well that there are extremists willing to believe that 'Christian Nation' means that non-Christians are unAmerican and that hunting season on non-Christians never closes.
ReplyDeleteIf you can get enough people to accept the first definition, then it greases the transition for them to accept the second.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteYeah Brian, horseshit makes good fertilizer.
ReplyDeleteStrong's usually has nuanced but still concise explications of the original word.
Camel is about as concise as it gets, it apparently means camel.
This whole town called Needle thread bit and switch is perhaps the low point in American theological discourse to this point in my opinion. I am almost without words to describe the jaw dropping absurdity of this.
ReplyDeleteIt's theology based upon the literal interpretation of stuff we made up to explain stuff some old guys made up.
I am almost without words to describe the jaw dropping absurdity of this.
ReplyDelete-----------
I know. Isn't it amazing?
What lengths they go to to deny, deny, deny whatever is in the bible that prevents them from indulging their huge, bloated egos.
And they have people, pastors even, telling them this, giving them the 'interpretation' that they want to hear rather than what is printed in black and white. So they trust those interpretations and believe in them because they affirm what they think they already know, that it is just fine with Jesus if they continue to be the greedy self-centered un-loving slugs they already are.
Actually, I remember it being slightly different when I was a kid and the "adults" tried to 'splain it to me.
ReplyDelete"You see, those ancient Arabic doorways were called needle's eyes. And, as you can imagine, a camel would have a hard time getting through such a doorway."
I was about 8 or 9. I didn't buy it then, I am not buying it now.
I did, however, stub my toe on a needle my sister had dropped on the floor when I was about 16. The damned thing sank completely, leaving only a piece of thread hanging from my big toe. That shit hurt on the way out !!
I can assure you, it is easier for a camel to thread a needle that it is to remove a threaded needle from ones toe .
This likely confirms in Observant's mind, "Never tell the Atheists "The TRUTH(TM).", they'll just try to spoil it for you."
ReplyDeleteYou see, those ancient Arabic doorways were called needle's eyes. And, as you can imagine, a camel would have a hard time getting through such a doorway."
ReplyDelete------------
Oay, but here's what I'm not getting. In all of these cases, while perhaps not 'as' impossible as a camel passing through the eye of a needle, the analogy still indicates extreme difficulty. It is not really possible for a camel to pass through a low gate or if it is it is still difficult... it is still impossible for a rope (not a camel) to pass through the eye of a needle. All of these things still indicate a difficulty, and not an easy path.
So even accepting any of those, the meaning is still that it is difficult if not impossible for a rich man to get into the kingdom of heaven. Not that different from if they just took the story at face value.
Or am I seeing it wrong?
Yeay Brian, it's a brush off. The city version forgets the camel and concentrates on the rich man having to leave his Earthly riches behind as he gets on his knees.
ReplyDeleteRich men are fairly pragmatic, they feel that after they actually die, when faced with a small doorway where they need to leave their Earthly riches behind to collect Heavenly riches, 'that' will NOT be a big problem for them.
Thread, string, twine, rope, meh, it's all a matter of 'perspective, and who's to say how big the needle in question is.
Plus, we can all simply be lawyers here. Jesus said that if you are 'saved' you're good to go. We are promised a trial 'in the end', fuck you God, you said 'saved' and fucking 'saved' it is.
Did Dick Cheney actually try to tell us that they got Bin Laden because torture works?
ReplyDeleteGAWD, y'have to be a cunt so rich that you're above the law to say something like that.
This is similar to that 80 year old cleric saying that molested kids 'get over it', so it's no big deal.
Hey, we may well all be sinners, but we're not all evil bastards like those two.
Brian,
ReplyDeleteNow that it has been a few days since you dealt with this article how do you feel about subject?
Jerry, I think that I am more relaxed when dealing with christian idiocy. Yes, definitely, there is more of a feeling of inner peace when say, talking to observant or eric or MI.
ReplyDeleteIt's still annoying, but now for some reason my initial reaction to hearing classic christian stupidity like how the republicans are actively defunding the tornado early warning system just after the worst tornado season on record, is to laugh rather than scream inside. That's a huge improvement, no?
Still have to wonder what the ideological reason for that would be.
ReplyDeleteOr are they just trying to alienate as many sane people as possible at this point?
I was just wondering...
ReplyDeleteOne can at least say that MI and Observant are believer. Yes, that's an insult in my book but at least one can categorize them as that.
What the hell is eric?
I don't see him having a 'belief' component, even though he claims to. He even admits that his god might not exist. That's not belief. That certainly isn't faith. Sure, he trys to pass it off as such but it's transparently obvious that it isn't.
So why is he doing what he does? Is it a monetary motivation, seeking a niche in the 'battle' between faith and reason, taking the 'faith' side solely because he knows that there is a huge shortage of anyone on that side even capable of basic logical thought or argumentation, so he nows that there is potential to be a rock star on that side? I mean, if he were on our side, the secular side, he's not really that great a thinker by comparison with all the others we have, but on the side of faith he's a one-eyed man in the city of the blind...
Or are they just trying to alienate as many sane people as possible at this point?
ReplyDelete--------------
Doesn't it actually seem that way? I agree, there seems no reason to do that unless your goal is maximum damage to our society and subsequent alienation from all decent people.
I mean, really? You wanna not have any clue when a tornado might hit, just after so many people have died from them? Really? REALLY?
Beyond belief.
Eric, is that it? Do you want to be the king of the blind?
ReplyDeleteI can at least understand a person that is corrupted by ego-based beliefs ignoring the sheer illogic of a deity, but I have a lot more problem with someone that ought to know better.
But hey, go for it. Be the next Dinesh. You'll make your lucre, no doubt. At the cost of your soul, but hey, you're not a believer anyhow, right.
I don't know if I have a soul... seems like it's a superfluous category to me. But I wouldn't sell out that way in either case. I wouldn't be able to live with myself.
Brian,
ReplyDeleteglad to hear of your progress. I understand the frustration of dealing with Christians, and the problems they cause, perhaps in a slightly different way than you. I do think your effort to enlighten them will be better if you are not so emotionally attached. Wish you the best in this area (as well as overall)
My take on Eric is he is trying to get a grip on understanding religious ideas, but he appears to me satisfied not unlike Observant that the intellect can get the job done. I think most Christians are in that boat. The reason faith is required is the intellect is not capable of getting the job done by itself. That presents a huge problem as faith while being very useful can be placed on false information. I think the main problem is placing to much reliance on faith without checking on the validity of it, like arguing with known facts. While faith can carry a person such as Gandhi or ML King to the heights they obtained it can also give us bin Laden. I have lived without faith, and I have lived with it. To me I would much rather live with it. the problem to me is what one puts faith in. Like putting faith into the bible as being the word of god leads to the dead end like Observant has found. Eric's approach would be a waste of time for me, but perhaps it will work for him in the long run.
Random Me Quote:
ReplyDelete"I had a God-Shaped Hole in my heart once. I managed to fill it with cookies."
-StBtG
One can find wisdom in peculiar places, like Patrick Swayze movies.
ReplyDeleteEmmett: It ain't the money ya understand, but if I don't charge ya somethin' the Presbyterians around here are likely to pray for my ruination. How does a hundred dollars a month strike ya?
Dalton: Fine.
Emmett: Can ya afford that much?
Dalton: If it keeps you in the good graces of the church.
Emmett: Ain't it peculiar how money seems to do that very thing?
Oh, and apparently, talking to eric in the past, it seems that catholic mentors are telling their charges that doubting in the existence of god, is still faith. In fact it is a more lively type of faith, more active somehow...
ReplyDeletePoppycock, and I don't even think poppys have cocks. Pistils and stamens sure, but...
That's hysterical. The protagonist (Swayze) has a degree in philosophy.
ReplyDeleteThe whole danged movie is a philosophy lesson, Harry ;-)
ReplyDeleteWade Garrett: That's girl's got entirely too many brains to have an ass like that.
I've obviously never seen this movie...
ReplyDeleteOf course I never was a Patrick Swayze fan. I've seen Ghost. That's about it.
Oh it's roadhouse. No wonder.
ReplyDeleteNever had a desire to see the bouncer movie.
Here's a revelation, and no disrespect for the dead intended...
ReplyDeletePatrick Swayze was an absolutely terrible actor.
I hope there are no hurt feelings here.
Hey though, come to think of it, now that he's gone, do you think Whoopie Goldberg ever hears from him?
Bri, Roadhouse was specifically chosen for it's, ahem, less than substantive nature.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteMI,
ReplyDeleteI am curious what you have against atheist. I am not an atheist, but I have been talking and listening to atheist on this blog for over two years. I have read some of their books, and thought about the thinking they do. I really do not see how you can have such harsh feeling toward them. Perhaps you would enlighten me as to what you see so wrong with them. From where I am it seems that they are earnestly trying to understand life just like the rest of us. About Hitchens, by your statements it seems like you are projecting onto him your ideas without knowing what his position is at this time. Maybe you would clarify how come you think you know what he is experiencing.
I think that that is a good question Jerry.
ReplyDeleteI think that, as usual, MI's answer is likely to boil down to, "It's policy."
It's circular. MI would ask the policy makers what policy is. The policy is to maintain the system of policy making.
It is fair to her, to them, because everyone must follow policy, or at least everyone ought to follow policy.
Hitchens promised to keep his dying out there for all to see, however, he's quieted himself away. Which points to his spiritual awakening.
ReplyDelete---------
Sorry, but this is absolute nonsense. More likely he's sick and lacks the stamina to male so many appearances and wants to spend some time with those closest to him.
Christianity cannot 'win' if it has to resort to lying or illogical statements without foundation - no wait...
Enough religion for today - come over and argue something less divisive - like healthcare reform!
ReplyDeleteMI's post was offensive, lying about a dying man, and slurring him, so I removed it.
ReplyDeleteI realized that I don't have to take her crap, and if she can't be civil she can post somewhere else. MI, your kind of small-minded hatred is not appreciated here.
There is no problem with health care reform. There is no argument that is not a lie.
ReplyDeleteSingle payer is the answer. It's not even a hard answer.
sorry B but single payer is not the answer. The obsession about how we pay for healthcare obscures the more critical issue of how and what we deliver. If we reform the method of delivery the payment will take care of itself. By definition, optimized care is the most cost effective.
ReplyDeleteSingle payer removes the profit motive from the equation. There cannot be a profit motive in healthcare, because you are dealing with human lives.
ReplyDeleteI'll check out your post tomorrow and let you know what I think. However you can reform the delivery system all you want to but if you don't take the insurance companies out of it you're wasting your time.
Of course reform is needed throughout to eliminate waste and fraud as well.
Single payer doesn't really eliminate the profit motive, nor in reality can we completely remove it to have a workable solution. The payers are only part of the cost problem. I am going to do a post on the cost structure arguments separately. The reality is that although most people voice the same sentiments as you did (medicine is different because it really is life and death), no one is willing to pay the full costs associated with that stance. Most people want it for themselves but don't care so much about paying for other people.
ReplyDeleteThere's something seriously wrong with the medical supply system.
ReplyDeleteI can go up to the mall and get me a 15 speed bike with front and rear suspension for less than 100 dollars.
A wheelchair, with way less parts, way less technology, is 5000 dollars.
Seems very very strange to me that adding 'medical supplies' to thing's description suddenly multiplies the cost of it by about 100.
What you CAN get for roughly 100 dollars is a walker with no seat, maybe two cheapo wheels/rollers in front, practically 10 dollars worth of thin aluminum tubing bent to shape.
Guess we could pretend that there is absolutely no safety concerns connected with the manufacture of bicycles, while the cost of the wheelchair is, maybe, 95% "safety concern"?
Most people want it for themselves but don't care so much about paying for other people.
ReplyDelete-------------
Yeah, that's not me. I want my taxes to go up, as long as the money is put to the right uses. If it were for single payer, sign me right up.
I want it much more for other people than I do for myself, btw. My wife is a state employee so we have decent insurance already. We don't need it, although it would be nice of course. Others need it desparately, or else they slip between the cracks. A nice euphemism for likely dying due to lack of medical care. A real 'death panel' consisting of private insurance corporations who decide who is cost-effective enough to let live, and who is not.
You're right though. A lot of people want it for themselves but aren't willing to pony up anything for it personally.
Too bad. Force them to. Later on they'll see the benefits.
I often wonder in situations like this why people can't see the trade-off. Higher taxes + almost no medical costs for all = net win!
Imagine how much easier single payer would be on start-ups and small businesses!
ReplyDeleteNo worries about providing health care for their employees, and healthier employees.
The reality is that although most people voice the same sentiments as you did (medicine is different because it really is life and death), no one is willing to pay the full costs associated with that stance.
ReplyDelete-------------
Those people are lying then. Because if they truly realized the human cost, the potential lives lost, and if they gave a damn about other people, if they truly 'loved their neighbor' it would be a no-brainer regardless of the cost. As it is for me.
Greedy christians are part of the problem here as well. Those who pay copious lip-service to 'love thy neighbor' and then ACT to only take care of themselves. Typical of the egocentric morality system they are raised in.nnTheir actions in the world reveal them as false christians, but who even has the eyes to see that nowadays? Not many.
sorry B but single payer is not the answer.
ReplyDelete----------------
Well then, whatever is has to be equally humane, or it isn't the answer either.
I'm serious here. The goal is the coverage of all, for no money. Anything less is morally reprehensible. It is not far off from putting a gun to people's head and robbing them, because their health, their very life, is on the line.
So tell me what other plan accomplishes the goal, sir. Recall though as you do that I automatically reject any plan that does not accomplish the goal as well as single payer. For one old lady or handicapped child dying for bureaucracy and industry profit is one too many for me. How about you?
There are single-payer models in other countries that work, and save money, and save lives. So it's not really that hard to see where to go. It just takes the political will. And lack of egotism. And love for others.
ReplyDeleteSo of course it's impossible here in america.
Single payer may be helpful, I do not know. One thing I do feel sure of, there will be no real help until the corruption is fairly well eliminated. Our system at this time is becoming more corrupted rather than less. Until that trend is reversed health care will continue to produce wealth for the thieves that care to line their pockets, and I do not see single payer helping to eliminate the thievery. In the culture we live in wealth, and power is the carrot that motivates, and ethics takes a back seat to the size of the bank account. Our leaders on both sides of the aisle is selling out to power, and wealth, and the country will continue to suffer until that is changed. If it does not change, and continues on the present path this country is toast. I remember when I first heard of 401k. My first thought was, I wondered how the thieves would steal that. We found out the hard way. I do believe that if we would elect officials according to their ability rather than as a popularity contest it would be a great improvement.
ReplyDeleteJoke of the day, Possible entries into the presidential race,
ReplyDeleteThere's also talk of Wisconsin Rep. Paul Ryan, chairman of the House Budget Committee, as a possible entrant.
I agree jerry, however...
ReplyDeleteThe government wouldn't be paying people's insurance bills for them, it would be directly paying their health care costs to the doctors and hospitals, remember.
Eliminating the middlemen. Eliminating the insurance companies.
The insurance companies would have to look elsewhere for things to insure because they no longer would be able to have any share of the healthcare market, except for plans that perhaps somehow suppliment the government plan where it may be weak. Cadillac plans, so to speak.
Their market would be effectively destroyed. Out of business. Buh-bye.
Wouldn't THAT be a great start in doing what you're talking about there jerry? Eliminating the corruption?
PAUL RYAN?
ReplyDeleteWhy? Because he's 'buff?'
Great. Go for it, reptards.
I understand that he has a slight political liability. The fact that he tried to kill old people and steal their money and give it to his rich friends.
I'm sure he can gloss over that, though.
Reptards.
ReplyDeleteNow that makes me look intelligent.
Still, if they run Ryan, they deserve the 'retarded' part. He's the new poster child for 'indifference to the plight of others.'
How can they run someone that is in the middle of being thrown under a bus by everyone that signed his bill?
ReplyDeleteTrump would be a better shot.
I hope they do have ryan run. Talk about owning your mistakes. They'd be absolutely branding themselves as the 'grandmother killing party of wealthy assholes.'
ReplyDeleteNew and offensive post is up!
ReplyDeleteMost people follow the leaders, and many, if not most, of our leaders are corrupt. Which means that when corruption is ramped up in the leaders the lower people get involved into thievery to. When the guy in the street sees the thievery going on at state and federal levels, many join right in, and can you blame them. They will get the money out of health care regardless of laws. Look at social security, that money does not belong to the gov but look what is going on. In the prison system the gov could not run (or they could not steal enough) so much of it got privatized, and of course the corruption got worse. Now many have a vested interested in tougher laws, and more prison time for the money. I do not think any thing will cure our problems as long as massive corruption continues. The main drain on the money is the pentagon, and the thievery from large contractors. I remember the murder of the astronauts because o-rings would not seal at low temperatures, yet no trial was ever held (or even mentioned). 401k is a another fine example. Corruption filters down to the bottom of our society, and as long as the majority follow the leaders we have a no win situation regardless of how many fixes we put in at different levels (like using band-aids on serious wounds). I think one of the things most threatening in the long run is allowing churches to run schools. That mistake will ultimately lead to the end of separation of church and state.
ReplyDeleteActually the single payer models in other countries are predicated on very different social expectations than ours and generally address very homogeneous populations compared to the US. England's is bankrupt and they are desperately trying to figure out an answer (I know as I have been in some of these meetings). I am aware of similar problems in at least 3 other EU nations from personal work with these systems.
ReplyDeleteOk Ste B, I have to kick your soapbox a bit here since to my knowledge only one of us has worked nights, weekends, and holidays actually providing emergency care to old ladies and kids. ;) I've also been involved in healthcare policy research for 15 years. My research has as its goal, the creation of a sustainable, affordable, universal access model. The front lines of healthcare look very different from what most lay people imagine. It is an extremely chaotic place. That's the problem - most people want to address the high level stuff but it's the actual delivery of care where the opportunities exist. Most of the high level 'reforms' end up making things worse at the bedside.
The biggest impediment to universal care in this country is the public. The public complains about the costs of the acute or sick care system we have, yet that system evolved in response to what the public was willing to pay for and expected.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis economic prioritization has resulted in the creation of the best acute care system in the world and one of the worst preventive care systems.
ReplyDeleteFor many of us in this area, single payer is nothing more than a band-aid - actually worse, it diverts resources away from where they can do the most good.
Lastly - keep in mind that single payer systems in other countries all include rationing of services. That isn’t always a bad thing. But many of the extraordinary measures we take for granted here (when you have insurance, or if you go the ED if you don’t) are not available elsewhere. The price of universal care is always a compromise that involves rationing for high end or high risk individuals. That’s how you can afford to give prenatal care to everyone - you reduce the burden of expensive (and often futile) end of life care, for example. So single payer never results in every granny and baby getting everything they might need - it is a system that provides basic care to all, not what the average American expects.
I'll give you the insider's viewpoint, and so all I can say is I hope that they do *something.*
ReplyDeleteIt's not sustainable as it is. And people like Paul Ryan aren't offering any solutions that aren't salt on a wound.
Aaaaannyhow, as I said, new post is up.
Good post. I learn something new and challenging on blogs I stumbleupon every day.
ReplyDeleteIt will always be useful to read through content from other authors and use a little something from
other websites.
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