So I've finally figured it out.
We suck.
No seriously, look at
this article.
See? We suck. Sad.
We are, as a country, a self-centered narcisistic lot with delusions of grandeur. We seem to have come to the unspoken concensus that believing we are NUMBER ONE, is somehow indistinguishable from actually being number one. We've grown sloppy and bloated, and we just don't give a shit anymore.
And I'll sing my sad, sorry song yet one more time here, and tell you that yes, absolutely, I blame the fucking religion. The religion, coupled of course with a ravenous pack of amoral Republican wolves who play the stupid sad sorry lot of religious fools like an out-of-tune saxaphone. This duality, the fools (sheep) and the wolves, is why we are in such a sad state of denial as a country. Heck, we've practically made blind patriotism a religion. Or perhaps more correctly an addendum to the already-existing religion.
We are the Lotos Eaters. We are asleep.
WAKE THE FUCK UP.
There. I've said it.
***************************
For those who cannot use the link provided, here is the article in full from Explore, the Journal of Science and Healing (http://www.explorejournal.com/home) minus references:
Volume 7, Issue 1, Pages 8-12 (January 2011)
5 of 13
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Trends That Will Affect Your Future … A Portrait of American Societal Health
Stephan A. Schwartz
The SchwartzReport tracks emerging trends that will affect the world, particularly the United States. For EXPLORE, it focuses on matters of health in the broadest sense of that term, including medical issues, changes in the biosphere, technology, and policy considerations, all of which will shape our culture and our lives.
Article Outline
• Abstract
• Tax Cuts
• Povertry Rate
• Moving In
• Prison Population
• Physical Health
• Hunger
• Justice
• References
• Biography
• Copyright
When Benjamin Franklin—the only founder who drafted and signed all three of the documents that brought the United States to life, the Declaration of Independence, the Treaty of Paris (September 3, 1783), and the Constitution—dreamed of the America he would like to see develop, the imagery that came to his mind was of a middle-class, largely urban culture made up of immigrants who were technologically sophisticated, family oriented, joyful, and upwardly mobile. And when he thought about how they might happen to become that society, it wasn't just the people he thought about. He also understood the importance of infrastructure as a factor in creating a middle class. He felt so strongly about this that he used his will to continue to support his plan for America beyond his death. He left specific bequests for public works and created the microlending model that has proven such a powerful transformative force, leaving what today would be several hundred thousand dollars1 each to the cities of Boston and Philadelphia. The infrastructure money was to be used specifically to build such an infrastructure and nurture such a middle class. He explained his intent was to create that “Which may be judged of most general utility to the Inhabitants, such as Fortifications, Bridges, Aqueducts, Public Buildings, Baths, Pavements or whatever may make living in the Town more convenient to its People and render it more agreeable to Strangers, resorting thither for Health or a temporary residence.”2
This is classic Franklin. He defines a goal, and a process for achieving it, but leaves any personal cherished outcomes as to how this should happen unstated. Franklin put his money on creating civic amenities—the kinds of things now seen as the prime targets for budget reductions—because he knew they are essential for a healthy city. His genius allowed him to conceive of the impact over time that parks, sanitation, and hospitals would have on the lives of all the city's people. He knew that each interaction with clean water, or decent medical care in an emergency, or a place to go for a picnic improves the quality of life and lifts morale. People think in larger terms, attempt more. Are more optimistic. The interaction each individual in the city has with these amenities might seem small and not terribly important, but in aggregate, over time, they are a powerful force in shaping a city's character through their impact on the lives of citizens and visitors alike.
How different that view is from the policies that seem to govern so many municipalities, states, and even the federal government today. Ultraconservative Grover Norquist voices this worldview: “I don't want to abolish government. I simply want to reduce it to the size where I can drag it into the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub.”3 What he does not say, and what is not acknowledged, is that such a vision of governance can only be attempted through the radical reduction of the social safety net Franklin recognized as so important, because philosophically this worldview sees no role for government in doing such things.
So do these anti-Franklinian ideas really work?
A large percentage of politicians apparently think so and, through their voting, have attempted to create this Ayn Rand world, with the Bush tax reduction for the rich as one of its crown jewels. Just about this time last year, I wrote an essay “The Vanishing Middle Class,” which dealt with what was happening in 2009 as a result of pursuing those kinds of policies.4 I talked about Franklin's view and the truth of what was happening, noting:
University of California, Berkeley, economist Emanuel Saez had reported that, in 2007, the disparity between the richest and the poorest reached a level never before seen, going all the way back to 1917 when modern tax data began to be collected. According to Saez's study, the top 10% of earners in America received 49.7% of all the income earned in the United States. To give this context as recently as the 1970s, the top 10% earned around 33% of all the income earned in the United States—a 17% shift. This contrast becomes even starker when only the super rich are considered. According to Saez, ‘The top 0.01 percent of earners in the US are now taking home six percent of all the income, higher than the 1920s peak of five percent, and a whopping six-fold increase since the start of the Reagan administration, when the top 0.01 percent earned one percent of all the income.'4
Or, put another way, as of 2007 the top upper-class 1% of households owned 34.6% of all privately held wealth, and the next 19% (the managerial, professional, and small business stratum) had 50.5%, which means that just 20% of the people owned a remarkable 85%, leaving only 15% of the wealth for the bottom 80% (wage and salary workers).
A year later, these trends have continued, and every one of my markers has become more distorted in favor of the top at a cost to the middle class and the poor. There are a hundred ways to show this breakdown. Here are seven, by which I hope you will see that I am not selectively picking my data to make a polemic case, but describing the actuality of American society just when it transits the midterm elections. Perhaps it will provide some guidance for the choices we now must make.
Tax Cuts
Just as they did in 2000, the Republicans are running, as I write this, on an economic platform centered on tax cuts, and proposing that the Bush cuts be made permanent for the richest Americans. The 2008 income tax data are now in, so we can assess what their economic theory is worth, and how it fulfilled its promise that tax cuts would produce widespread prosperity, by looking at all the years of the George W. Bush presidency. This is what David Cay Johnston, on the faculty of Syracuse University College of Law and Whitman School of Management, and Pulitzer Prize–winning tax analyst, concluded, based on the IRS data:
Total income was $2.74 trillion less during the eight Bush years than if incomes had stayed at 2000 levels (all figures are in 2008 dollars). In only two years was total income up, but even when those years are combined they exceed the declines in only one of the other six years.
Even if we limit the analysis by starting in 2003, when the dividend and capital gains tax cuts began, through the peak year of 2007, the result is still less income than at the 2000 level. Total income was down $951 billion during those four years.
Average incomes fell. Average taxpayer income was down $3,512, or 5.7 percent, in 2008 compared with 2000, President Bush's own benchmark year for his promises of prosperity through tax cuts. Had incomes stayed at 2000 levels, the average taxpayer would have earned almost $21,000 more over those eight years. That's almost $50 per week. Just measuring the second through seventh years we find that total income was still nearly $2 trillion lower than if 2000 level income continued.5
Povertry Rate
That same US Census data also described what has happened to the nation's standard of living, comparing just the latest time period—2008 data with that of 2009. Here are some of the highlights:
Some 43.6 million people were living in poverty last year—the highest number since 1959, five years before President Lyndon Johnson declared his War on Poverty. The poverty rate was 14.3 percent, up from 13.2 percent in 2008 and the highest level since 1994. Hispanic households took the hardest hit: Their poverty rate rose 2.1 percent from 2008's level, compared with a 1.1 percent jump in the rate for blacks and whites. (The US government considers an annual income of $21,756 to be the poverty line for a family of four.)
A record number of Americans, 50.7 million, were not covered by health-care insurance in 2009. At the same time the survey was being taken, Congress passed President Obama's contentious health-care reform law.6
Moving In
From the 50s until about five years ago, one of the strongest American familial trends was for children to grow up and move away. It was a central part of the nuclear family ethos. That is now reversing thanks to the grinding down of the middle class through unemployment, job loss, and reduction in income even when a person is employed.
From 2005 to 2009, family households added about 3.8 million extended family members, from adult siblings and in-laws to cousins and nephews. Extended family members now make up 8.2% of family households, up from 6.9% in 2005, according to Census data released in September 2010.
“Clearly, a big part of that is the economic recession and housing costs,” says Stephanie Coontz, cochair of the Council on Contemporary Families, a nonprofit research association. “We're seeing a shift away from the 1950s and 1960s mentality against extended families, when ‘modern’ women did not take in aging parents for fear of hurting their marriage.”7
And this shift involves far more than blood relations. “For the first time in more than a century, more than half of people aged 25 to 34 have never been married. The number of people in non-family households—those whose members are not related—grew 4.4% from 2005 to 2009, faster than the 3.4% growth for family households.”7
Prison Population
According to the Pew Research Center's Economic Mobility Project, the US prison population has more than quadrupled since 1980, from 500,000 to 2.3 million.8 The American Gulag is now larger than the 35 largest European countries combined. The incarceration rate in the United States—753 inmates per 100,000—is five times that of the United Kingdom—itself an anomaly at 151 prisoners per 100,000. France, which is next, stands at 96, with Germany at 88. This means more than one in 100 Americans is in prison, and one in every 28 children in the United States has a parent behind bars—up from one in 125 just 25 years ago.7
It probably won't surprise you to learn that a family with a parent in prison on average earns 22% less the year after the incarceration than it did the year before. After all, who wants to hire an ex-con in a tight labor market? And children with parents in prison are significantly likelier to be expelled from school than others; 23% of students with jailed parents are expelled, compared with 4% for the general population.
“Both education and parental income are strong indicators of children's future economic mobility,” the survey notes. “With millions of prison and jail inmates a year returning to their communities, it is important to identify policies that address the impact of incarceration on the economic mobility of former inmates and their children.”7
In all, 2.7 million US children have parents behind bars, and “two-thirds of these children's parents were incarcerated for non-violent offenses,” the study notes.7
And when you break the statistics down by race, it just gets nastier. There are large disparities. Among black children, fully one in nine, or 11.4%, have a parent in jail. For Hispanics, the number is one in 28, and for white children it's one in 57.
I hope marijuana law reform passed in California, because this alone could help reverse these trends, simply by reducing the 858,000 arrests in the United States in 2010 for marijuana. That's marginally down from the 2007 peak of 872,000. It is notable that more than 50% of these arrests are nonviolent violations involving marijuana.9
The cost to states of this human warehousing now exceeds $50 billion per year, or one in every 15 state dollars expended.7 What is worse is that a growing number of small towns and cities now look to the gulag for their economic well-being. Like something from an Orwell novel, it is a complete cycle: one group of Americans lives on the incarceration of another group of Americans. And although it would appear illogical, it goes on even though it is well-known that the children of incarcerated parents face a much harder struggle in life. The gulag that incarcerates their parents, in the process, also often condemns the next generation to a life in jail.
Why would any society do this? Well, from the point of view of those who live on keeping them, and who mostly live in low-crime areas, isn't this exactly what is wanted? Thus, we have created a lobby whose rice bowl is dependent on the gulag. It is a truly Dickensian reality that few talk about for fear of being labeled “soft on crime.” It is a form of willful ignorance on the part of politicians and citizens alike.
Physical Health
In 1950, before the inception of the present illness profit industry, the United States, compared with the world's other leading industrial nations, was fifth with respect to female life expectancy at birth, surpassed only by Sweden, Norway, Australia, and the Netherlands.10 In 2010, the United States position concerning female life expectancy had fallen to 46th.11 And when both men and women were combined, it went to 49th.12, 13 Americans live 5.7 fewer years of “perfect health”—a measure adjusted for time spent ill—than, for instance, the Japanese.14
Is this the result of lack of spending on the part of the United States? Most emphatically it is not.
Health policy expert Uwe E. Reinhardt, the James Madison Professor of Political Economy at Princeton University, headed a team that specifically considered this. They found, “per capita health spending in the United States increased at nearly twice the rate in other wealthy nations between 1970 and 2002.”15 As a result, the United States now spends well over twice the median expenditure of industrialized nations on healthcare, and far more than any other country as a percentage of its gross domestic product.15
Peter A. Muennig, assistant professor of health policy and management at the Mailman School of Public Health, Columbia University, in New York City, and Sherry A. Glied, professor of health policy and management at the Mailman School of Public Health and currently on leave as assistant secretary for planning and evaluation at the Department of Health and Human Services, analyzed Reinhardt's and many other studies in a groundbreaking exegetic survey of healthcare.16 They concluded:
We found that none of the prevailing excuses for the poor performance of the US health care system are likely to be valid. On the spending side, we found that the unusually high medical spending is associated with worsening, rather than improving, 15-year survival in two groups for whom medical care is probably important.
We speculate that the nature of our health care system specifically, its reliance on unregulated fee-for-service and specialty care may explain both the increased spending and the relative deterioration in survival that we observed. If so, meaningful reform may not only save money over the long term, it may also save lives.16
Hunger
It doesn't get much more basic that not having enough to eat. It is hard to think of America as a place where large numbers of people are facing hunger as a daily reality for themselves and, even worse, for their children. That happens in Africa, or maybe Asia, but surely not here. You think not? Millions of our fellow citizens routinely are forced to make life decisions based on whether they or their children will eat or go without to pay for housing or medical bills. And even the slender pipeline of assistance that does exist is problematic; 70% of emergency food centers face threats to their survival.
According to a study from the nation's largest food bank operator, the number of Americans in need of food aid has jumped 46% in three years, including a 50% jump in the number of children needing food assistance and a 64% increase in hunger in senior citizens' homes.
According to the largest study of domestic hunger ever done, Hunger in America 2010, a study based on more than 61,000 interviews with clients and surveys of 37,000 feeding agencies, “hunger is increasing at an alarming rate in the United States”17:
1.Feeding America is annually providing food to 37 million Americans, including 14 million children. This is an increase of 46% over 2006, when we were feeding 25 million Americans, including nine million children, each year.
2.That means one in eight Americans now rely on Feeding America for food and groceries.
3.Feeding America's nationwide network of food banks is feeding one million more Americans each week than we did in 2006.
4.Thirty-six percent of the households we serve have at least one person working.
5.More than one third of client households report having to choose between food and other basic necessities, such as rent, utilities, and medical care.
6.The number of children the Feeding America network serves has increased by 50% since 2006.17
“Clearly, the economic recession, resulting in dramatically increasing unemployment nationwide, has driven unprecedented, sharp increases in the need for emergency food assistance and enrollment in federal nutrition programs,” said Vicki Escarra, president and CEO of Feeding America, which operates some 200 food banks across the country.
“It is morally reprehensible that we live in the wealthiest nation in the world where one in six people are struggling to make choices between food and other basic necessities,” Escarra said in a statement.
She added that “these are choices that no one should have to make, but particularly households with children. Insufficient nutrition has adverse effects on the physical, behavioral and mental health, and academic performance of children.”18
Feeding America's report is far from alone in reporting this food catastrophe.
“The Food Research and Action Center found that nearly one in five in the US—18.5 percent — report having gone hungry in the past year, up from 16.3 percent at the start of 2008. Households with children were even likelier to experience hunger, with nearly a quarter reporting hunger in the past year.
“Perhaps worst of all, the Feeding America study finds that 70 percent of emergency food centers are reporting “one or more problems that threaten their ability to continue operating.”18
Justice
I have placed this last because I hope you will agree with me that where there is not justice, there is not civil society. It has always been my safe port that no matter what else happened in America, I always saw the justice system as fair. Perhaps you feel the same way, and will be as appalled as I was when I read the World of Justice Project (WJP) report, Rule of Law Index 2010.19
To understand why I think this report is such a big deal, perhaps it will help to say who funded it: the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, the Neukom Family Foundation, the GE Foundation, the Ewing Marion Kauffman Foundation, and LexisNexis. I list them to make the point that this is the pinnacle of nonpartisan philanthropy, not some political think tank with an agenda. We can trust the data.
The project, involving 900 researchers from 35 countries, who have polled 35,000 individuals, in addition to searching each nation's records, presents itself in this very Franklinian way:
“Establishing the rule of law is fundamental to achieving communities of opportunity and equity—communities that offer sustainable economic development, accountable government, and respect for fundamental rights… . The rule of law is the cornerstone to improving public health, safeguarding participation, ensuring security, and fighting poverty.”
When the WJP talks about the rule of law, they spell out very carefully what they mean. They refer to “a rules-based system in which the following four universal principles are upheld:
•the government and its officials and agents are accountable under the law;
•the laws are clear, publicized, stable, and fair, and protect fundamental rights, including the security of persons and property;
•the process by which the laws are enacted, administered, and enforced is accessible, fair, and efficient;
•access to justice is provided by competent, independent, and ethical adjudicators, attorneys or representatives, and judicial officers who are of sufficient number, have adequate resources, and reflect the makeup of the communities they serve.
With this as the basis for its analysis, the Rule of Law Index 2010 then lists what it calls the 10 “factors,” which break down further into 49 “subfactors.” These descriptors are the basis upon which the Rule of Law Index 2010 evaluates a nation's justice under the rule of law. The outcome of this exercise is a quite extraordinary assessment “of the extent to which countries adhere to the rule of law—not in theory but in practice [emphasis added].”19 Here are the 10 factors; they all sound very “American”:
•factor one: limited government powers
•factor two: absence of corruption
•factor three: clear, publicized, and stable laws
•factor four: order and security
•factor five: fundamental rights
•factor six: open government
•factor seven: regulatory enforcement
•factor eight: access to civil justice
•factor nine: effective criminal justice
•factor 10: informal justice19
As I started reading the report, I assumed that whatever other self-inflicted wounds we have brought to ourselves as a nation, our justice system was still solid, and that the United States would rank at the top of the world's list. Surprise. The WJP groups countries by regions as well as such considerations as income level, then evaluates them, dropping factor 10—“informal justice”—because it is does not involve law. Not surprisingly, the United States is grouped with North America and Western Europe, and there are seven nations in our bloc: Austria, Canada, France, Netherlands, Spain, Sweden, and USA (Table 1). These are the nations where the survey was carried out for the 2010 report, with other countries to follow in later reports.
Table 1. Nine-Factors Ranking Analysisa
Nations Factor One Factor Two Factor Three Factor Four Factor Five Factor Six Factor Seven Factor Eight Factor Nine
Austria 3 3 4 1 1 6 3 3 1
Canada 4 4 3 3 4 4 4 5 6
France 6 5 5 4 6 5 6 6 4
Netherlands 2 2 2 5 3 2 2 2 3
Spain 5 6 7 7 5 7 7 4 7
Sweden 1 1 1 2 2 1 1 1 2
USA 7 7 6 6 7 3 5 7 5
a
Countries are ranked from one to seven.
For the United States, it is a death's head portrait of the reality that lies beneath the smug rhetoric we use to hector others about justice and the rule of law. I am embarrassed. We all should be. This has haunted me since I read the report. If America is not a leader in justice, what are we? I could pick a dozen other trends, from closing libraries, to depaving streets, to decline in educational performance, but do we need to go further? If America were a patient, what would you tell him about his lifestyle and habits? What would you see as his prognosis?
On the basis of data, it is impossible to say America's societal health is good. On the basis of that same data, we can also conclude policies based on cutting taxes, without recognizing that it is in the societal interest to assure a decent quality of life for all, are destructive. We know enough to see that democracy cannot function properly without a healthy and vibrant middle class, and to prove to ourselves that we are killing ours. We need to change course—not on the basis of political ideology—but on facts. Facts about what does and does not work.
It is the middle class that holds the key, just as Franklin saw all those years ago. The middle class has enough money to dream, but rarely enough to do it alone. Success requires working together, finding compromises. And that's what most of us say we want. According to research by Michael I. Norton of Harvard Business School and Dan Ariely of Duke University, 92% of Americans would choose to live in a society with far less income disparity than the United States, choosing Sweden's model over that of the United States.20 The America Benjamin Franklin imagined while sitting beneath his mulberry tree in the courtyard of his house in Philadelphia over two centuries ago.
References
Speaking of critical thinking and as loath as I am to respond to anything MI posts, this comment highlights their inability to think critically.
ReplyDeleteIt takes two to make a strong partnership -- and it really takes a strong Faith in order to ACTUALLY live it.
This comment was made in light of the statistics Brian posted showing that conservative Christians have higher divorce rates. That evidence indicates that the exact opposite of what she asserts without substantiation. "A strong Faith" is correlated in some way with the inability to have a strong partnership (correlation doesn’t necessarily means causation).
My wife and I are both atheists (she’s the best kind of atheist, an apathetic agnostic). I don't extend my anecdotal experience to make claims about other people (i.e. only atheists can have loving marriages).
Mind bottling how these people think....
For MI:
ReplyDeleteI have three ex-wives, but I was in all three cases the one who played by the rules, even though all three X-wives proclaimed to be of one religious flavor or another. So, even though you'll pull "no true Scotsman" out and claim that they weren't "real" Christians, you're still left with an outlier in your data: Me.
I was the one that behaved, and they were the ones that lusted after others and acted on those lusts.
"So the question is, how does someone in their 40s or 50s (Mike?) learn critical thinking?"
ReplyDeleteGreat question Ryan. But that presupposes Mike doesn't know it at all. He might use it quite well in other areas of his life.
If he doesn't know it the process is probably the same for any human who goes about learning it at whatever age.
If he does know it and has chosen cognitive dissonance over clarity... I don't know I see less hope there.
"I was the one that behaved, and they were the ones that lusted after others and acted on those lusts."
ReplyDeleteMy ex-wife certainly lusted after something... money. She kept a secret bank account, used me to help support her through college, get a house and then I was outta there. Outlived my usefulness apparently.
I was so deluded. When she told me she wanted a divorce I started bawling and said to her, "But you're my best friend." She said, "I'm not your friend."
Ouch.
Oddly enough out of everything she's done or said to me, that hurt the most.
And she's supposedly a Catholic.
Oh well, like Jesus said in Luke 9:18, "Shit happens."
Tussling Over Jesus - NYTimes.com
ReplyDeleteURL: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/27/opinion/27kri...
This is the best book for Christians to read about evolution. Miller is a professor of biology at Brown, an ardent defender of contemporary evolutionary theory, a renowned and reputedly fierce debate of creationists -- and a Christian. In fact, his book is a great read for atheists as well, since he *demolishes* creationism in it. But in the end he explains why evolutionary theory and robust, orthodox Christian belief are perfectly compatible. (I should say that he explains one particular approach to defending the compatibility of the two.)
ReplyDeleteTest your critical thinking here and here. If you've taken logic 101, you should have no problem with either test. I scored 15/15 on both, of course. ;) Try them out.
ReplyDeleteHmmmm, that might actually be interesting. Not sure how it's possible to reconcile evolution and original sin unless you take an extremely liberal approach to the scripture, but then that's not Orthodox...
ReplyDeleteActually, what do you mean by othodox? As a Catholic I assume you mean Catholic when you say orthodox and not Lutheran, Russian, Eastern, Greek, etc... right? To outsiders, orthodox is a sort of worthless term when you guys have 30,000 sects.
14/15. I threw the book at Mary.
ReplyDelete14 an 11, but I've never taken logic 101 or any philosophy classes.
ReplyDelete"Actually, what do you mean by othodox? As a Catholic I assume you mean Catholic when you say orthodox and not Lutheran, Russian, Eastern, Greek, etc... right?"
ReplyDeleteNo. Roughly, by 'orthodox' I mean the content of the great Christian creeds, which Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, etc. all accept.
"To outsiders, orthodox is a sort of worthless term when you guys have 30,000 sects."
Not when roughly 1.25 billion are in almost perfect agreement (Catholics and Orthodox), and another 500 million or so are in agreement on the fundamentals as expressed in the great creeds (Anglicans and Protestants of all sorts).
Eric; I just think if the "Holy Spirit" was actually involved in a personal way, there's be MUCH less disagreement.
ReplyDeleteNever mind Mormon's and Jehovah's Witnesses...
"I just think if the "Holy Spirit" was actually involved in a personal way, there's be MUCH less disagreement."
ReplyDeleteWhy?
Many of Jesus' disciples left him after they heard his teaching on the Eucharist. One of the disciples who remained betrayed him. Another one denied him, and they all abandoned him when he was arrested.
If they, who saw Jesus face to face, could experience such fear, confusion, selfishness, etc. how much more the many Christians who have lived since then?
Jesus promised that his Church -- his mystical body -- would be guided by the Holy Spirit. He didn't say that each and every person who calls himself a Christian would be guided by the Holy Spirit. Indeed, he said that he'll deny knowing many who claim to work in his name.
I loved the logic test - but for a different reason. One - that philosophers imagine that water with another composition might exist and 2, the case of Mary is a classic allegory to how one can ignore the vast data supporting evolution. All very logical and one imagines useful in trying to thwart findings that one finds inconvenient. The example of all ducks bark and Donald is a duck and therefore barks is the type of argument we see a lot of round these parts... Logical except that ducks don't bark. (I didn't miss any btw, because I have had logic training but as in these examples, one can see how logic can be twisted.)
ReplyDeleteGood point Eric. Jesus was just a guy. I think those points you brought up speak strongly against Jesus actually preforming any real miracles in his lifetime, no healing the sick, no water into wine, no walking on water, no daemon pig stamped, regardless what the gospels say.
ReplyDeleteI will say one thing I do admire about Catholic individuals is that they tend to be inclusive of all christians as you've just been (but, as an organization of course, the pedophilia cover up more than tips the scales back to the negative). I'm not jaded enough to think your entire motivation for doing so is to boost your numbers, although that's probably part of it, you've used the "numbers" argument a number of times.
With that said you shouldn't be under any delusion that many, and a majority on the conservative side, of the half a billion souls you included in your count (probably Mike too) don't consider you to be an actual christian.
"One - that philosophers imagine that water with another composition might exist and 2, the case of Mary is a classic allegory to how one can ignore the vast data supporting evolution...one can see how logic can be twisted."
ReplyDeleteWow, you completely missed the point in both cases.
With respect to Mary (question 12), the fact that the argument isn't valid *in no way conflicts* with the obvious conclusion that there is "vast data" supporting the proposition that Mary was the murderer. The problem is that the conclusion, "Mary committed the murder" *does not follow*. There's positively no 'twisting' of logic going on whatsoever. Amazing.
With respect to the water example (question 15), I find it extremely odd that you object to it, for the reason it's invalid is *inextricably* tied to *precisely* the same line of reasoning used to support the all important falsifiability criterion in science!
"All very logical and one imagines useful in trying to thwart findings that one finds inconvenient."
No, you have it exactly backwards. These questions have nothing whatsoever to do with any possible logical escape hatches; rather, they demonstrate how one can go too far in the opposite direction by deriving conclusions too strong for the premises used to support them.
Let me illustrate: You claim that P *necessitates* C, when in fact it merely strongly supports C. Suppose I point out your error. May I now claim that C is false, or that I have good grounds for rejecting C? Of course not. The fact that you misconstrued the strength of the argument for C in no way opens the door for me rationally to reject C. If C is strongly supported by P, it's strongly supported, and barring any additional premises that undercut C or P, I *cannot* rationally reject the conclusion that P strongly supports C. I can reject the conclusion that P necessitates C because that's false, but I can't (ceteris paribus) reject the conclusion that P strongly supports C.
MI said...
ReplyDeleteHey, this guy disagrees with me. Says that christians have great sex within the sanctity of marriage. Sounds pretty good, I must admit...
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Beautiful and satisfying and Sacred intimacy.
Yes...it is pretty good!
In fact, it's Awesome... ;~)
--------------------------------
Um MI?
You are aware that the man in the video is Ted Haggart before he was caught having gay sex on crystal meth?
Just wondering how you see that as so sacred.
"I think those points you brought up speak strongly against Jesus actually preforming any real miracles in his lifetime, no healing the sick, no water into wine, no walking on water, no daemon pig stamped, regardless what the gospels say."
ReplyDeleteNo, I think they speak to our moral frailty. Do you honestly think that if you only had witnessed someone performing miracles, you'd follow him come what may? I don't. And I'm speaking for myself there, too.
I think that I understand myself much better now, as a Catholic, than I did when I was an atheist. For example, since I go to confession regularly, I'm obligated to take a close look -- a very close look -- at my moral failings, which indicate areas of moral weakness. (No, it's not about guilt, but about God's mercy, my improved self understanding and god's grace.) I've always been very introspective, and though I wasn't particularly immoral as an atheist, I can say with confidence that I wasn't as morally perspicacious as I am now. I'm reminded of the following words by C.S. Lewis: "For the first time I examined myself with a seriously practical purpose. And there I found what appalled me: a zoo of lusts, a bedlam of ambitions, a nursery of fears, a harem of fondled hatreds." The moral of the story is obvious: take a close enough -- and honest enough -- look at yourself, and chances are you'll have the same experience Lewis had. And I think that these obvious facts about our own weakness explains the actions of those who knew and in one sense or another rejected Jesus quite well.
Eric - I didn't miss anything in your little example. The test mentioned the philosophy discussion about water. I don't care a lick for the physics is pretty plain. Also, I was referring to the Mary case in reference to the comment that another made about evolution being merely circumstantial. There is more data supporting its factual nature than a thousand cases of Mary. So the faithful often seem to have very differing sets of criteria for evidence. It's their right but it's also bogus. Like many tools logic can be misused.
ReplyDeleteAll the condescending lesson plans in the world don't change the fact that many of us think that theists insist that All ducks bark, Donald is a duck, therefore donald barks is as compelling as a century of multidisciplinary science. Only problem is that all ducks don't bark.
We are not moved nor convinced. At some point one must just accept an approximation of reality to some level of certainty and move on. And that is precisely what I plan on doing. The contribution of the theist fudge factor in reality has become so trivial that we just discard it for simplicity's sake. And guess what - nothing changes.
I understand myself better now that I'm not religious. Not sure what that proves though...
ReplyDeleteThe moral of the story is obvious: take a close enough -- and honest enough -- look at yourself, and chances are you'll have the same experience Lewis had.
5 billion people beg to differ...
Do you honestly think that if you only had witnessed someone performing miracles, you'd follow him come what may? I don't. And I'm speaking for myself there, too.
ReplyDeleteAre you honestly saying that if someone told you they were god, then walked on water, healed a 1st century imperial backwater leper, turned water to wine, resurrected a dead guy, put a soldiers ear back on with out stiches, then rose from the dead himself, you might not follow him come what may? Seriously? I honestly can say I would, no questions asked.
Of course that's assuming I actually witnessed those thing... but that's the kicker...
"I didn't miss anything in your little example."
ReplyDeleteIf you think that the examples you used show how 'logic' can be 'twisted,' then I'm sorry, but you missed everything. As I explained, they show *nothing* of the sort.
"All the condescending lesson plans in the world don't change the fact that many of us think that theists insist that All ducks bark, Donald is a duck, therefore donald barks is as compelling as a century of multidisciplinary science. Only problem is that all ducks don't bark."
I'd love to know what theists you have in mind. As I said in an earlier post, when philosopher's critique arguments, they spend most of their time working on the truth or falsity of the premises , and when they construct arguments, they spend most of their time supporting their premises. This applies to philosophers of religion as well. If you're under the impression that 'theists' don't care a bit about the truth or falsity of premises, but only care about whether an argument is logically valid, then you're simply wrong. (Since you used the term 'theists' generally, I'm using it generally. And I referred to 'philosophers' here because in your first post on the subject you implied that you were directing your remarks towards philosophers -- again, generally speaking.)
I got the question about Mary murdering the guy wrong in the second test, because I felt that a personal confession has more weight than the other items in the list.
ReplyDeleteIf Mary said she did it, then the argument is still invalid?
I'm with Pliny on this one.
Ed; it's the classic theist retreat to the possible, however improbable.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I know: it's an exercise, and Mary could have lied because she has a desire to go to prison and let the state provide her with "three hots and a cot"...
ReplyDelete"If Mary said she did it, then the argument is still invalid?"
ReplyDeleteEd, I know that you said you never took logic, so you may not be clear about what 'valid' and 'invalid' mean.
Simply put, if an argument is valid, then if its premises are true, its conclusion *must* be true.
With this in mind, look at the argument again: is it the case that if Mary confessed, was seen leaving the scene, etc. she *must* have committed the murder? No. Yes, it's very, very likely that she did -- the evidence is extremely strong -- but it's not *logically necessary*. That's the point I was making to Pliny: You have to be *very* careful when you formulate your conclusion. If the conclusion had been, "Therefore we have very good reasons for concluding that Mary committed the murder" or "Therefore it's highly probable that Mary is the murderer" or something along those lines, then the argument would be fine. But the conclusion, "Therefore Mary committed the murder" simply *does not follow* from those premises.
To make my point clearer, here's what you'd need for the conclusion, "Therefore Mary committed the murder" to follow: a premise such as, "If someone admits to committing a murder, then that person did commit the murder" or "If someone is seen leaving the scene of a murder, then that person committed the murder," to be true. But these premises are *obviously* false. Does that help?
"Ed; it's the classic theist retreat to the possible, however improbable."
ReplyDeleteNo, it's *nothing* of the sort. It's about what does and does not follow from a set of premises. Again, if the premises do not logically necessitate the conclusion, and if the conclusion is, "therefore X," as opposed to "therefore probably X" (or whatever), the argument is invalid.
Come on, this is very basic to critical thinking. For people who were complaining about a lack of critical thinking skills (or of the application of those skills) earlier, you're showcasing a dearth of them now!
No Eric, Mary killed that guy. As far as we know.
ReplyDelete"No Eric, Mary killed that guy. As far as we know."
ReplyDeleteO critical thinking! How brazenly your most ardent supporters betray you! They praise you, but they know you not. They proclaim your name, but they've never met you. They admonish others for rejecting you, while rejecting you themselves!
Dumbass. You really are.
ReplyDeleteEric; with mary, at some point you have to call it.
ReplyDeleteJust like with god.
"Eric; with mary, at some point you have to call it."
ReplyDeleteYes, I agree. If I were sitting on a jury, and were presented with that kind of evidence, and with no strong rebutting evidence, I'd vote to convict her. Why? Because I would be persuaded beyond a reasonable doubt. Now surely, Ryan, you can distinguish, "Eric, after considering all the evidence, has concluded that Mary is, beyond a reasonable doubt, guilty of murder" from "Mary committed the murder." Please tell me you can see the chasm between the two. Please.
Eric, what does "As far as we know." mean to you?
ReplyDeleteNow surely, Eric, you can distinguish, "Jesus said..." from "an anonymous source claimed at least 30 years after the fact that Jesus said..."?
ReplyDeletePlease tell me you can see the chasm between the two. Please?
"Many of Jesus' disciples left him after they heard his teaching on the Eucharist. One of the disciples who remained betrayed him. Another one denied him, and they all abandoned him when he was arrested. If they, who saw Jesus face to face, could experience such fear, confusion, selfishness, etc. how much more the many Christians who have lived since then?"....
ReplyDelete"No, I think they speak to our moral frailty. Do you honestly think that if you only had witnessed someone performing miracles, you'd follow him come what may? I don't. And I'm speaking for myself there, too."
-Eric
________________________________
I'm glad you mentioned this, Eric. It reminds me of a thought I had after viewing The Passion of The Christ. "How could these men turn their backs on the god they had a personal relationship with? All of them?"
Jesus couldn't sway his besties to follow him, how is it that we should ?
I mean, C'mon, Man, these men *knew* he was a god, yet they abandoned him. That doesn't speak well for his leadership skills, at the very least. We all know quite a few mere mortals that command more allegiance than that.
And, you would have abandoned Jesus too? Really?
I believe if I ever met a god, any god, I'd be all over him (her/it).
I bet Cthulhu never had these problems.
Mac,
ReplyDeleteIf you was the follower of one you thought to be God, and he asked you as a close follower, and friend to carry the message on into the world, and not to get involved in what was to take place. Would you not do that for him?
I was a bit hasty when I took the test; sort of 'off the cuff'. I wanted to see if gut instincts could provide good answers, but even so, I saw at a glance that some of the conclusions, while absurd, followed from the given premises.
ReplyDeleteI understand that it was an exercise.
I could see where I made mistakes upon reviewing the answers.
I did a 14 and 12. One question in the 2nd I never did understand. Seems like the author was a little off, like playing with tricks as well as asking serious questions.
ReplyDeleteIf you was the follower of one you thought to be God, and he asked you as a close follower, and friend to carry the message on into the world, and not to get involved in what was to take place. Would you not do that for him?
ReplyDeleteJerry, the great commission was after the resurrection and after the disciples all abandoned him. At least according to Matthew anyway.
Jerry,
ReplyDelete"Seems like the author was a little off, like playing with tricks as well as asking serious questions."
He did on the second test. I got a 14 and a 13. The 13 is alright considering the second only had 14 legitimate questions. I loved the limited choice crap he pulled in the second Mary example.
Didn't you love his explanation?
"Neither of the answers you HAD to choose from was correct. Tee hee. Aren't I fucking clever?"
Of course Eric would like that.
15 and 14. I actually took one year of Logic (i.e. Boolean Algebra) which was given in the mathematics department (rather than in Philosophy). As far as I am concerned, Eric is correct in his arguments regarding logical validity. He is perfectly right to say that one can use logic to arrive at conclusions regarding the origins of our observed realities. Unfortunately, this test clearly shows that the validity of an argument does not necessarily correlate with its "truth". As we have seen and should understand from mathematics, no equation (logical argument) can have a result (conclusion) more accurate than the factors (premises)entered into the equation. In the end, it seems to me that one still cannot argue to the existance of an "initiating event" (let alone a deity as we usually use that term) without the "grain of faith" that I believe Thomas Aquinas spoke of when he said (I paraphrase) that if one had just the smallest grain of faith he could argue logically to the existance and reality of the Catholic Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Be that as it may, it seems that most of us here have difficulty with Eric's detailed attempts to get us to agree that his logical arguments are at least valid (which in my opinion most of them are, when, in fact, we are really reacting to some of his premises (with most of which I personally disagree.) Herein, I think, lies the problem. Eric is known to us as a believeing Catholic who claims to have been an atheist and who says he arrived at his current belief system mostly through logical consideration of whatever "evidence" he has been able to find. That most of us either disagree with his premises or have not yet found them to be "true" ourselves might hearken back to Aquinas' statement regarding the need for at least a grain of "faith", without which all the logic and arguments in the history of the universe must fail to convince.
ReplyDeleteI certainly would question the don't get involved part, Jerry.
ReplyDeleteDid Jesus ask them to abandone him or did he just predict they would?
As an aside, would any current practicing christian lay down his life for Jesus?
Could any loving father watch his son be tortured and beaten yet sit idly by?
I couldn't. I would die trying to stop it.
Hey, Mike!
ReplyDeleteGood for you!
As for bizarro world, well -- it's too bad these chaps here never had the chance to get a GOOD education.
It seems that they're all starry-eyed over half-truths and modern day deceptions.
Which, honestly, worries me and makes me a bit sad. I've come to really care for this lot here ;~)
Oh well, got to get dinner ready...
How beautiful, having a president that without equivocation endorses the people of Egypt haveing control of their government.
ReplyDelete"Eric is correct in his arguments regarding logical validity. He is perfectly right to say that one can use logic to arrive at conclusions regarding the origins of our observed realities. Unfortunately, this test clearly shows that the validity of an argument does not necessarily correlate with its "truth"."
ReplyDeleteHarvey, right. But I have never said that the logical validity of an argument is sufficient for establishing the truth of its conclusion. (I don't know if this is what you were implying.)
"Be that as it may, it seems that most of us here have difficulty with Eric's detailed attempts to get us to agree that his logical arguments are at least valid (which in my opinion most of them are, when, in fact, we are really reacting to some of his premises (with most of which I personally disagree.) Herein, I think, lies the problem."
I agree completely. Here's one way to understand how logical validity can be cashed out in these kinds of discussions: If one presents a logically valid argument for a conclusion another disagrees with, that latter person *must* reject at least one of the argument's premises. So, if I present a logically valid argument for god's existence, and you disagree with the conclusion, "god exists," you *must* reject at least one of the premises. Now here's where it gets interesting: if the argument's premises are very probable or very plausible, the cost of rejecting the conclusion is very high (because to do so you must reject a well supported premise); and, the more plausibly or probably true the premises, the higher the cost. That is, in order to reject the conclusion of a logically valid argument with very strongly supported premises, you have to reject at least one very strongly supported premise. Of course, if an argument's premises are weakly supported, the argument can be rejected at little or no cost.
So I agree, Harvey: the issue almost always is, what premises do you reject/accept? (I say 'almost always' because most of the time the arguments we deal with -- especially those formulated by philosophers -- are logically valid.)
Eric:
ReplyDeleteYou may have noticed that I have not chosen to comment much in these threads in which you have tried to get us "unbelievers" to see how you have arrived at the belief system which to you is fully logical and, as you put it, "strongly supported" by your premises.
This is partly because I have travelled a path of inquiry very much like yours(in reverse) from, in my case, a highly observant and extensively studied religious background to the opposite conclusions
(i.e. agnosticism/atheism)you tell us you have reached. I choose to think that I have studied the necessary logic, as well as enough of the philosophers/apologists to have done so with an "open" mind and a sincere effort to arrive at the "truth". If I have learned anything useful in this long personal inquiry, it must include that all of the philosophers/apologists I have studied, including many atheists, either have concluded or have made implicit in their writings that Aquinas was right. No matter how brilliant one's logic may be, he/she must at some point have the "kernel" of faith (by which I mean the willingness to accept/believe some premise for which there can be no proof, at least in our current reality) he referred to. Even intellectually honest non-believers like many of us on this blog have to admit that we can no more be certain of the non-existance of a "prime mover" than theists can be certain of their conviction that their particular deity of choice does exist. For some of us, continued participation in debates about this may be purely intellectual curiosity, but for the majority, it seems to me, this ongoing interest reflects the fear and uncertainty that have led every culture we know of to create a deity or deities. It seems to me that Christians, in particular, seem to become apologists/proselytizers largely to get some degree of affirmation for their beliefs, perhaps even more than out of any sincere concern for some unbeliever's immortal soul.
Although I continue to follow your often erudite "teaching" efforts here, I can readily understand why some of us find your posts excessively pedantic and, despite your protestations of conviction that you are certain you have it right, some people could conclude that you are as much in need of self-confirmation as any overt proselytizing fundy.
Harv did it again :)
ReplyDeletemac,
ReplyDeleteOf course I don't know what happened or even if Jesus ever lived, but this is my take on Jesus and what happened. I think he did what was necessary to bring his self to the end that happened. He knew if his guys got involved they would just get killed, and that was the last thing he wanted to happen. His mission as he saw it was to spread the idea that we are children of god, and can, using faith know that. Spreading that idea was his driver, so I think he did ask/order them to not stick around.
"No matter how brilliant one's logic may be, he/she must at some point have the "kernel" of faith (by which I mean the willingness to accept/believe some premise for which there can be no proof, at least in our current reality) he referred to."
ReplyDeleteIt all depends on what you mean by the phrase, 'for which there can be no proof.'
If I'm to understand you literally, then *every* argument, for *any* conclusion -- scientific arguments, political arguments, etc. -- relies on that 'willingness to believe' you're referring to, since they *all* rest on at least one premise that cannot be proven in that literal sense.
If I'm to take the phrase more loosely to mean that certain premises are completely unsupported, then I disagree. An argument with completely unsupported premises is a bad argument, and none of the serious arguments for god's existence that I know of rest on such premises. (I say 'serious' arguments to distinguish them from the worse sort of arguments you might, say, find in a blog comment, or from a televangelist; there are all sorts of poor arguments out there for every position, on every subject, but they are not our focus.)
"despite your protestations of conviction that you are certain you have it right, some people could conclude that you are as much in need of self-confirmation as any overt proselytizing fundy."
This is very frustrating. You simply cannot find, in any of my posts, on any blog that I comment on, anything resembling a 'protestation of conviction that I'm certain that I have it right.' You will find me critiquing and defending arguments with passion and vigor, but that's not the same thing. Now on certain subjects (such as the little logic discussion we had previously on this thread), I will say, yes, I'm certain that I have that right. But I've never said or even implied that I'm certain that I have it right about god's existence, or about the truth of Christianity. Indeed, I seem to remember telling all of you about an experience I had with a Franciscan confessor within the last year: I told him of some of my doubts, and he *encouraged* them. God wants us to use our minds, he said. This has happened to me many times. So I'm sorry, but I have no idea what you're talking about.
But I've never said or even implied that I'm certain that I have it right about god's existence, or about the truth of Christianity.
ReplyDeleteHow can one talk about experiencing god's grace (1/27/11 9:02pm) without implying that one is certain that they have it right about god's existence, or about the truth of Christianity?
That's like talking about nice a BMW 335i drives, while claiming that you never implied that automobiles exist.
But I've never said or even implied that I'm certain that I have it right about god's existence, or about the truth of Christianity.
ReplyDeleteHow can one talk about experiencing god's grace (1/27/11 9:02pm) without implying that one is certain that they have it right about god's existence, or about the truth of Christianity?
That's like talking about nice a BMW 335i drives, while claiming that you never implied that automobiles exist.
January 29, 2011 7:57 AM
------------------------
Excellent point Ryan!
OK. Just to be clear, any or all here - please state whether this is what you subscribe to in the vein of desiring socialism for our country...(Ryan, Floyd..etc)
ReplyDelete"7. From Idolatry of the State to Anarchy
Socialists teach that, at the present stage of human evolution, it is already possible to abolish private property, social hierarchy and the family. They seek to make the State the sole proprietor of all rights. This State, led by workers and peasants, will maintain complete equality among men. In the future, the universe and man will evolve in such a way that even the State will wither away."
Seriously, who "owns" this: stand up and be counted.
Brian, you've been divorced atleast one, correct??
ReplyDeleteAlso, it's nothing less than a serious intellectual disconnect on your part to discuss Ted Haggard's sinful/lustful behavior with the purity and sacredness of what my husband and I have been sharing for more than a few decades.
I did not see your link in re to Ted Haggard. Nor do I care to. I would like to think that he's repented of his sins, etc....and trying to make things right....but, honestly, at that point - that's his own personal business. (hint, hint)
I find it very interesting that Mike and I have been living out the fullness of our Christian beliefs as it refers to marriage and divorce.
BTW: you've been divorced atleast once, yeah? Just checking again.
Also, make your position clear here:
are you
sad
or happy
that your atheistic, self-centered, narcissistic and animalistic views of sex and lack of moral values are having quite a loud and distinct influence on (branded "Conservative Christian)young people today?
Now, you like to re-define narcissism and put the blame on others all the time rather on where it squarely deserves to be placed.
I get that de-Nile part of you.
And, I also get that you're right and everyone's always wrong and everyone's a vulgar name or two that you like to bandy about. I get that you have thought to yourself too many times that you're number 1 to the point that you actually believe it, etc...
But, tell me - would you like to go into these youth groups and preach to them that no, it's not all about you and your sex drives and animal lusts-- you must not think that it's all about you -- that you must learn to hear the elders in the Church when they say to treat girls like ladies and not like sex objects for your lustful releases? Or that you should listen to your elders when they tell you to obey the commandments: not to hurt or use others in any way; be it verbal, physical, emotional or spiritual? And that you should wait until you've gotten a decent education, a good job and then court a woman to marriage where you will live a self-giving life....etc... etc...
?
OR--do you want the Conservative Churches to STOP preaching this?
?
No more dodging...answer the questions posed to you.
I really want to know your heart on these questions via your direct answers to them.
Thank you.
Ryan, are you a prophet of things to come?
ReplyDeleteI only ask because you have stated how you would respond should someone perform a miracle before you.
Surely, you can say how you'd like to think how you'd react, but you do not know with 100% because you have not experienced it yet.
You shoud leave some room for doubt.
Dontcha think?
It's not like you're some piece of stone; no, you're a living, thinking (and doubting) human being.
Give yourself more credit, okay?
mac divorced.. check.
ReplyDeleteHarvey??
Ryan?? (You look to young to have been previously married, though..)
Harry, you deserve better...sure hope you're re-married to someone special....yes?
MIKE
ReplyDeleteWhat's the current tally on divorced posters here?
Can you check on that for me when you get a chance?
Thanks ;~)
Hey, Jerry,
ReplyDeleteSo, yeah, power to the people in Egypt, huh?
What exactly do you think will come out of all of this in a 90% Muslim-populated country?
Granted, the 9+ % of Christian Coptics are fighting for the rights and dignities of the people....
Something the 90% Muslims can't deliver even if they got their way politically.
I'm so glad you decided to put your critical thinking skills to use there!
Oh, btw: ever been divorced?
(there's a tally going on)
Well, Brian started it....
ReplyDelete"How can one talk about experiencing god's grace (1/27/11 9:02pm) without implying that one is certain that they have it right about god's existence, or about the truth of Christianity?"
ReplyDeleteBecause I'm well aware of the fact that I could be fooling myself (contrary to what many of you think). As I said before, if those who knew Jesus could doubt him, how much more could I? Thomas, anyone?
Also, remember that I'm a Catholic, not a Calvinist. I don't think that grace is irresistible, pace one of the five points of the famous 'tulip' acronym:
Total depravity
Unconditional election
Limited atonement
Irresistible grace
Perseverance
As I said before, if those who knew Jesus could doubt him, how much more could I?
ReplyDeleteNo, an anonymous source claimed at least 30 years after the fact that those who knew Jesus could doubt him.
Try to be consistent Eric.
"Seriously, who "owns" this: stand up and be counted."
ReplyDeleteHmm, MI I could be wrong but I don't think socialism and the free market are mutually exclusive. In fact I bet some genius could come up with a balance between the two, which I think most governments have failed to do so far.
To me they're both indicative of evolution: the free market, natural selection, and socialism, group survival.
As far as sex, religions have it partly right. For our biology it should be taught that the body is sacred (to oneself) and that monogamy is more than likely the healthiest option, mentally and physically.
However, the part that religions got wrong is the utter condemnation of sexual desire unless it's for some transcendent purpose or strictly reproductive.
Religion made sex dirty, especially for women. That's why they could only be pure angels or filthy whores.
What you have now MI is the institutionalization of a cultural rebellion that goes with being told a lie about a biological process.
Hopefully we'll reach some sort of equilibrium.
"No, an anonymous source claimed at least 30 years after the fact that those who knew Jesus could doubt him.
ReplyDeleteTry to be consistent Eric."
Consistent? I think you meant to use another term, for what I wrote is not 'inconsistent' with anything I've said, as far as I can see.
See your post from 1/27/11, 10:49pm.
ReplyDeleteUm, there's no inconsistency there at all.
ReplyDeleteBut I can guess at where you're trying to go. It won't work, though, for I've never said, "I know with certainty precisely what Jesus said" or "I know with certainty that the gospels are perfect records of Jesus' life and words." But that doesn't concern you, does it? See, here's the irony: you regularly accuse me of sophistry, while that lame attempt has to be one of the most blatant attempts at sophistry I've ever seen. Perhaps you're the one with the consistency problem.
while that lame attempt has to be one of the most blatant attempts at sophistry I've ever seen.
ReplyDeleteOh do go on.
Eric:
ReplyDelete"It all depends on what you mean by the phrase, 'for which there can be no proof.'
If I'm to understand you literally, then *every* argument, for *any* conclusion -- scientific arguments, political arguments, etc. -- relies on that 'willingness to believe' you're referring to, since they *all* rest on at least one premise that cannot be proven in that literal sense.
If I'm to take the phrase more loosely to mean that certain premises are completely unsupported, then I disagree. An argument with completely unsupported premises is a bad argument, and none of the serious arguments for god's existence that I know of rest on such premises."
The key here, I think, is that "none of the serious arguments for god's existence that I know of rest on such premises."
You then need to point out that those arguments of many apologists that yopu do not accept are not "serious". I not only agree with you in this, but must point out that not everyone will agree with you which of the arguments you do consider "serious" convince them, as well. Once again, every one of us must decide (choose to believe) the veracity of those arguments.
And, almost as an aside, I have even more trouble in understanding your "logic" in progressing from a belief in the existance of any so-called prime mover/first cause/unnamed deity to not only Jehovah, but to the traditional Catholic dogma as it existed throughout history and now exists in our present times. BTW, it is encouraging to hear you tell us of at least one Catholic priest who "encouraged" you to question your conclusions.
MI:
ReplyDeleteI have been married twice. The first time for eighteen years, producing three children. My wife then chose to divorce me (although I was the one who had been completely faithful), leaving me with my children to raise. Two years later, I met and married my present wife, now of 30 years, who helped me raise my (now decidedly our) children. My first wife is now deceased. Our children consider my wife their maternal parent (but not their mother) and all of our grandchildren kinow her as "Grandma".
What's your point?
Harvey,
ReplyDelete"What's your point?"
I'm sure her point is that all or most of us "atheists" here at St. Brian's Paddy Shack, have had broken relationships caused by our lack of sexual morality.
Her hope is probably that this extends to most "atheists."
On a side note I'm even more tired of that term than I was previously. Why the heck should I define my beliefs by someone else's?
"The key here, I think, is that "none of the serious arguments for god's existence that I know of rest on such premises."
ReplyDeleteYou then need to point out that those arguments of many apologists that yopu do not accept are not "serious". I not only agree with you in this, but must point out that not everyone will agree with you which of the arguments you do consider "serious" convince them, as well."
Harvey, first, the fact that "people disagree" is a given. People disagree about all sorts of things, from the existence of god to the truth of contemporary evolutionary theory.
Second, perhaps I was unclear: No serious argument for god's existence rests on premises that are demonstrably false of obviously unsupported, but that doesn't entail that if I don't care for a particular argument, I've concluded that it's not 'serious.' Take the Kalam cosmological argument: I'm not exactly a huge fan of it (though I use it frequently for purposes of illustration, as I'm using it here), but I do think it's a serious argument. Similarly, there are many arguments with conclusions I disagree with that I take to be very serious arguments, such as some contemporary evidential formulations of the problem of evil. What I was referring to were demonstrably bad arguments, e.g. arguments for young earth creationism, or god-of-the-gaps arguments.
"BTW, it is encouraging to hear you tell us of at least one Catholic priest who "encouraged" you to question your conclusions."
This is far from anomalous. Indeed, it happens all the time: from the pulpit, in the confessional, in interviews, in conversation, in books, etc.
"And, almost as an aside, I have even more trouble in understanding your "logic" in progressing from a belief in the existance of any so-called prime mover/first cause/unnamed deity to not only Jehovah, but to the traditional Catholic dogma as it existed throughout history and now exists in our present times."
ReplyDeleteThe reason so many priests encourage us to doubt and to use our minds is that Catholics believe that much of what we believe about god, morality, the soul, etc. can be demonstrated rationally. Now there is much we cannot demonstrate, strictly speaking; for that we have revelation. But it's certainly not the case that there's no logical connection between the god we can argue for and the god of Catholic Christianity. As I've said before, the outline of the argument goes like this: (1) arguments supporting god's existence, (2) arguments from (1) to the attributes this god must have, (3) arguments that the god defended in (1) and (2) revealed himself uniquely in Jesus of Nazareth, (4) arguments that Jesus founded a Church and promised to guide it and to preserve it, (5) arguments that the Catholic church is that church, and (6) arguments that the Catholic church has taught such and such about god. So it's not the case that there's a giant logical leap from 'god as reason can know him' to 'the god the Catholic church worships.'
This last bit is often misunderstood, for it is a form of the argument from authority. What's important to keep in mind is that not all arguments from authority are weak or fallacious -- for example, arguments from legitimate authorities are good arguments. They're not the strongest possible arguments for the simple fact that the authority can be wrong, lying, etc. but they're generally good arguments. So, if I know nothing about biology and medicine, I do have good grounds for believing that I have cancer if I've been told that I do by several competent doctors. But now imagine an omniscient, perfectly good authority: an argument from that kind of authority would not only be good; it would be one of the strongest kinds of arguments one could imagine. But if the Catholic church is what the argument from (1) to (5) concludes, then an argument from the authority of the Catholic church *on matters its authority via Jesus comprises* just is a form of that supremely strong argument from authority.
Now in that series (1) to (6), I think that the most difficult moves are from arguments (1) and (2) to (3), and arguments from (4) to (5). But the only point here is that there is a clear logical path from the god we can defend through reason to the god I worship.
MI,
ReplyDeleteOur president was making a statement to the whole word, regardless of your country or race or anything else the people ruled. What you fear, socialism, is a smoke screen put up by those that are trying to lead us into an oligarchy. Some of your statements lead me to believe you might be one of the group that thinks an oligarchy is the way to go.
Eric, it makes no sense to me that you "worship" something you're not certain exists. Why bother? Pascal's wager?
ReplyDeleteI get Mike, he's deluded, but his position at least makes sense.
"Eric, it makes no sense to me that you "worship" something you're not certain exists. Why bother? Pascal's wager?"
ReplyDeleteRyan, you've said that you're a skeptic about pretty much everything. But I suspect that you've made a number of serious commitments of some consequence, both to yourself and to others. Take marriage, or having children, or voting, or making a moral choice, or giving another advice, or choosing what is and isn't healthy, etc. In each case, you're less than certain, you're doing things that will affect both yourself and others, in some cases for life, and you're making a commitment (even if, in the future, you change your mind). What's the difference?
Eric; What's the difference??? I am aware that my wife and child and various politicans that I vote for exist.
ReplyDeleteRyan, you missed the point: you're making commitments where you're not certain, just as I am, but you're bemused by my decision and apparently unaware of yours. You don't know if the woman you marry will betray you. You don't know if the child you choose to have will have a horrible life. You don't know if your political decisions will harm others. You don't know that the moral choices you make are the best ones. That's the analogy, not whether your wife, children, political outcomes, et al exist.
ReplyDeleteI'm making commitments to people I'm certain exist. You're making a commitment to a dead Palestinian who's divine status you are not even certain about.
ReplyDeletePlease tell me you can see this gulf?
Ryan, you're missing the obvious grammar of your objection, so let me spell it out:
ReplyDeleteIf S commits to P, but is uncertain about P, then [whatever you think the problem is].
Now it doesn't matter if P is uncertainty about the future quality of a child's life, uncertainty about a wife's loyalty, uncertainty about a god's existence, uncertainty about the consequences of political or moral choices, etc.
Eric; I can only assume you have no real world commitments?
ReplyDelete"Eric; I can only assume you have no real world commitments?"
ReplyDeleteHuh? I have all sorts of "real world" commitments (aside from my faith, though I certainly consider it to be a 'real world' commitment). That's kinda my point: we *all* must, by virtue of living a human life, make sundry commitments that are, by definition, out of proportion to the degree of certainty we have.
But I've never said or even implied that I'm certain that I have it right about god's existence, or about the truth of Christianity.
ReplyDeleteHow can one talk about experiencing god's grace (1/27/11 9:02pm) without implying that one is certain that they have it right about god's existence, or about the truth of Christianity?
That's like talking about nice a BMW 335i drives, while claiming that you never implied that automobiles exist.
-------------
A very telling point. One of the most telling ever against Eric. And he hasn't handled it very well erither.
I'm making commitments to people I'm certain exist. You're making a commitment to a dead Palestinian who's divine status you are not even certain about.
Please tell me you can see this gulf?
-----------
If he could, he wouldn't be a christian.
The gulf is huge. Insurmountable, in fact. There is nothing i common with a religious belief and a belief in another person. Other people can be judged, because you get to meet them in person. If you're stupid enough to judge that god exists just from the 'evidence' presented by a really old book written by people with vested interests who never witnessed any of it, then no matter how sophisticated your logic is at reaching your conclusions, no matter which apologists and philosophers you employ in the process(who also base it all on the Bible, since that's all we've got,) your whole life philosophy is based on thin air, period.
You've managed to dumb yourself down in a very smart way.
Eric's delusions are like this. Seemingly minor till you realize that in toto they allow him to have his magical thinking and deny it too (sort-of) when necessary in order to not seem like a total fool when cornered on it.
And mike is right. If you're not even sure god exists, you have no faith, and so to the great dogma god of the bible, what good are you?
Might just as well have stayed an atheist, if he ever was one.
Also, it's nothing less than a serious intellectual disconnect on your part to discuss Ted Haggard's sinful/lustful behavior with the purity and sacredness of what my husband and I have been sharing for more than a few decades.
ReplyDelete-----------
I didn't. You are, now. All I said is that the tape you watched and commented about, saying that it represented some spiritual union or some such thing, was Ted Haggart. Apparently you had no idea who he was. That was all I said to you.
Stop 'going there' MI. The data shows in that study that fundamentalist christians have more divorces. Deal with it. Calling us out for our failed relationships doesn't change that study one iota, so stop magically thinking that it will.
The two-tiered christian conditioning system:
ReplyDeleteFirst you have fairy tales for the gullible, for the catholic fundies-in-waiting if you will (and the protestants and fundies out there as well of course, who don't have the second tier themselves but cheer on those catholic apologists who do as if they were speaking for them as well;) if they buy into that, into the simple shit, no need to go further. The gullible will just 'believe' with no facts necessary, and no doubts involved. Because they're told to.
They think doubts are evil things, and they consciously run from the very idea of one.
If you get called out on the fact that many of your faith don't believe as you do, weren't taught anything more sophisticated than just to believe with no apologies taoght to them, then you can just ascribe it to vatican 2 or whatever they were teaching at the time, as if the teachings should be that malleable if they were the very word of god...
But then, oh then, you have the catholic system of apologetics, the second tier, for the smarter people that need a much more sophisticated multi-tiered system of lies in order to 'buy in.' They are thus told that it's okay to doubt, even desirable, since a smarter individual will not buy into anything that doesn't allow any doubt, and they want smart people, too. And as to God, his very definition is conveniently flexible, depending on the particular aspect of the tapestry of lies you're examining at the time. If you need god to be the prime mover and nothing more than that in order to believe, or in order to defend him to others, then so be it, it's fine and dandy to think about it that way... but of course in your heart you just know better, that it's really Yaweh of the Old Testament wnd his son Jesus. You can half-believe in arguments or even think them unsound and yet *still use them* as you see fit, and if you're called on it, why you were just using it as an illustration, and you didn't really mean it.
Sickening, isn't it? Or is it just me here that finds it so?
"A very telling point. One of the most telling ever against Eric."
ReplyDeleteThis too is telling. Let me ask you, Ryan and Brian:
(1) what do you guys take 'grace' to be?
(2) what specifically about your answer to (1) would make it *impossible* for one who claims to have experienced god's grace through the sacraments to question at times the purported source of his experience?
Obviously, (1) deals with theology as such. But (2) deals with both theology and psychology. Let's say I claim to have experienced E in the past with a person S. Is it impossible for me to now question the existence of S? I don't see why not: perhaps I was hallucinating; perhaps I'm schizophrenic; and so on.
This is very interesting: If I were to claim to have experienced god's grace and have to thus to have no doubts at no time, on the grounds of that experience, that god exists, you all would surely go on to tell me that I'm naive, and that I should doubt it because human beings can fool themselves, hallucinate, etc. But if I tell you that I believe I experienced god's grace but that I do entertain doubts about it, you're now claiming that I can't say that I question it for those very reasons.
So if I believe I've experienced god's grace and have no doubts, I should be open to doubt. But if I believe I've experienced god's grace yet do at times doubt it, I should not be open to doubt.
So here's the next question:
(3) Which is it?
As I see it, the inconsistency is manifestly on your side, not mine.
Harvey, thank you for your personal input. Divorce is never fun and I truly hope that your second wife has proved nothing but many blessings to you and your children. It sounds like that's the case!
ReplyDeleteI wish you continued Marital Bliss ;)
+++++++
Harry, I especially valued your post.
But, I've got to tell you, truly I do not understand how you could "get" that I am one iota pro-oligarchy. I mean, oh my goodness, it's just so frustrating at times with you guys. I think both sides need to step back as it were and try to really write what's in our hearts to stated questions directly. Especially so that we truly all have a crystal clear image of where the other is really coming from rather than just working off of stereotypes, etc. I see Communism in the near future for our country. I witness the gov't is working at feverish pitches and like Brian says, we the collective people are asleep and need to wake up. I don't blame one party, one faction, one belief system on this as it takes so many to tango (well, two, but you get my drift).
Do you know what I mean at all?
As for neither totally free-market or totally socialistic/or whatever oppressive regime you like - sure I'd like to wish and to believe like you that there could be a good mix of all that is good. But, can you not see that the world's not as of yet produced such and has not sincerely proven it's desires for such in the present times?
To me, it sounds like wishful thinking or hoping for some kind of huge miracle, you know?
* Also, just so you know, the Catholic Church (and I'm sure other faiths as well) does not simply reserve sacred unions for propagating...it does teach and understand that pleasure via sexual intimacy - along with the emotional and spiritual pleasures that go hand in hand with it are not only fine but good and the church condones that within marriages.. for the sole purpose of wanting to see joy-filled and sacred marriages..full well knowing that not every married couple is blessed with fertility.
(Of course you know that in vitro is a no-no in our teachings for very valid and deep moral reasonings).
I had an emergency hysterectomy and The Catholic Church does not say that my husband and I need to abstain.
There is abstenion, in marriage, for the primary purpose of helping couples conceive (as in the NFP method, or Natural Family Planning Method - not to be confused with the Rhythm Method).
Now, if the two spouses are on the same page and committed to the same values and truly made competent choices in marrying then
honestly, the divorce rate would be so much lower. I don't say zero because no one's perfect.
What I primarily say about divorce is that there are so many forces outside the marriage (I refer to them as wordly forces) that would like to pull one or both spouses apart for whatever the reason. That's when we see cases like ed and Harvey happen.
And, I'm not saying it's primarily ed or Harvey's fault. Let's be clear on that, too.
When Brian posted that article from a Texas journalist, I read it and see a shred of Truth in it. But, that shred does not merely affect "Conservative" Southern Christians.
There's a huge battle working to destroy the family unit. And it is a multi-faceted one. The youth of today are the most vulnerable to these factors.
I've went on and on about this several times over the past few years blogging with you guys about it.
Yes, yes, indeed, we all do need to wake up and work at helping this society to flourish and be prosperous.
Okay, everyone have a great day today!
MI :~)
Sorry, Brian, I missed your post to me.
ReplyDeleteI did *not* see the video. Nor do I care to.
You cite one study. One study.
And, of course, you did not for the Catholic Church's stance on the issues at hand.
I merely gave you personal information concerning one marriage-my own and that the good,sacred christian marriages
are do-able, they exist.
Now, to your second post, to which I think was mainly aimed at Eric - though since you cast your many dispersions on the Catholic Church and on to Catholics- of which I am one of them - please allow me to tell you that I know you're trying. Outside of your desire to pull people away from God, I do see a glimmer of you really trying to have a discussion.
But, for some reason, your posts always come down to your own black-and white (meaning without any gray) formed opinions of something you walked away fromn many years ago.
And, my heart goes out to you because it looks like you're trying to wrap your head around things.
In the end, your accusations don't truly grasp the fullness and the richness and the very depths of what the Catholic Church's all about.
I've spent decades searching, reading and asking and praying and listening to and reading the Catechism, the Popes, the priests' sermons, looking to history, trying my very best to obey with a sincere heart the 10 Commandments, with a honest, open and loving heart. And, much like Eric, at times in my life, have doubted things I cannot see - but, in the end (meaning where I am so far in my journey) I cannot deny what I've felt in my heart in that it jives with what I've been taught (and I'm not simply referring to the half-hearted attempts that some of the nuns taught- or tried to teach- God bless them) us back in the days of Kumbaya.
You know, even then the Truth was out there. It just needed to be pursued with an ardent heart.
I don't think I'm better or smarter than anyone else. On the contrary -- I've had to work very hard at this each step of the way.
And I do not judge others in the pews or in the world.
I don't push my beliefs on others, nor do I call names or cast aspersions or belittle others - especially others who do not see things through the same lenses as mine.
I'm not done my journey, by far.
But, one thing I can tell you is that The Catholic Church never condones name-calling, hurting others, belittling others (intentionally) or to hate others.
It also teaches us to study, to get the facts, to use reason, to constantly seek what is right, what is good and what is true.
And all of the beautiful, if not somewhat complex (not to be taken as meaning more superior than) knowledge and spiritual helps for those who seek it....for the good of that person's soul, primarily and then secondarily for the good of others.
Brian, why have you not directly answered any of the other questions that I have posed?
(see post on socialism, etc).
I would be thankful if you did. Would like to know what's in your heart about such matters.
Please be direct and gentlemanly and intelligible as opposed to deflecting or pulling out some reverse-the-argument around with smoke and mirrors.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Eric? Would you like to add to this? (As a Catholic?) I would be truly grateful for your reply.
Blessings and warm regards,
MI ;~)
Oh, good grief! Another thing:
ReplyDeleteFOR MIKE: Hey,Ryan accuses you of not knowing how to think critically.
Well, there are two ways to take the word critically.
One - sound reasoning
Two - criticize everyone and everything.
You're awesome the first way and the second way simply doesn't apply!
N/A !!!!!
Peace,
MI ;~)
And,oh,Harry, about *f* the theory reply to me really quickly, if you don't mind: No joking there.
ReplyDeleteAlso, you cannot summarily say that True Love doesn't exist. (Does *True* Lust exist? I dunno...inclined to think not, though.)
Aw, guy, I REALLY do want you to find it and revel in it, yeah?! ;)
Agreed on core values. But, I believe it takes God's hand in things, too. Because God is love and a marriage definitely cannot survive without love in it.
I'm not arguing with you here, just putting out to you what's in my heart and responding is all...
Have an awesome day!!
Peace, and, well, love to you (love in the filial sense...which has its merits, too ;)
MI
MI:
ReplyDeleteYou (and most other Christians) continue to confuse the "sacrament of marriage" that your particular church may recognize with the secular, legal contract, sanctioned by some state or government, that is meant by all the rest of humanity. Clearly, a religious definition will not only be highly variable from faith to faith, but it can have no bearing whatsoever on anyone unaware of or not accepting of that faith. You are distinctly chauvinistic in your presumption that people cannot have a loving, sustained relationship except within "the sanctity of marriage" as you choose to define it. It is this chauvinism/pride/FEAR that leads to most, if not all of the present problems regarding marriage, exemplified by the religious right's insistance that any such marriage "contract" that does not meet their particular "rules" is, somehow, an "attack on the family".
I still cannot understand the "logic" (Eric?) in the view that the manner in which any two (or more) adults willingly enter into any such legal, state sasnctioned contract (marriage or otherwise) can possibly have any impact on other such contracts (marriage "sanctioned" by the church), let alone to somehow weaken/lessen/impugn/etc the value or strength of religious marriages, especially inasmuch as no religious organization in the USA has ever been "forced" to grant religious recognition to the state sanctioned kind. Please remember that every clergyman who conducts marriage ceremonies in the USA must be licensed by the state and always must state "by the power vested in me by the State of..., I now declare you man and wife."
Over a long period of time the main purpose of the ideas embraced will ultimately be available for all to see. The beliefs of the catholic church (leaders) have shown what the ideas of the church has lead to, arguable the lowest form of human life. Leaders that endorse the ideas, that is the teachings of the catholic church, used these ideas to deceive and harm the most defenseless (children) in the name of the highest values know to man. No serious loving person would BE ABLE to willingly follow the teachings that has lead to the despicable thought patterns, and behavior that has been put on full display for the world to see. (Ignorance is no excuse in this case) If justice were served the most hardened murders would have to wait in line with the leaders of the Catholic church were executed. Anyone following these leaders not only fail to do critical thinking , they fail to think at all. Blind leading the blind, protect your children, and keep them from the catholic leaders, whatever the cost. Adding insult to injury the catholic church is going to call the CEO in charge of such despicable behavior a saint. One has to wonder how even these low life leaders can flaunt such in your face approval of this type of behavior. If there is an anti-Christ, I would think the search has ended at the Vatican.
ReplyDeleteEric said:
ReplyDelete"But if I tell you that I believe I experienced god's grace..."
Have you? How do you know?
I think that wherever anyone has used the term "oligarchy" in previous posts, we should change that term to read "corporatocracy" (is there a 'real' term for this?), as that describes the phenomenon in question more precisely.
ReplyDeleteEric; missed your comment due to some inane babbling. I have no delusions that whatever I claim "grace" to be, since it won't 100% conform to your sects definitions, you'll be able to claim gotcha.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I as an atheist, the definition that seems to fit all is gods involvement in your specific life.
Now, you use the word "experienced". Shouldn't grace be observable and repeatable if it's something that's "experienced"?
As for your one two, I think that's just clear evidence that graduate school has stuck your head in the theoretical.
ReplyDeleteNo doubt, everything could be an delusion, we could be part of a computer simulation, Vishnu's dream, or some such, but why that very remote possibility makes you think it's warranted to compare experiencing an encounter with living people to experiencing an encounter with the effects that you hope against hope are from a dead guy is beyond reason.
I loved the Eric/Ryan exchange there.
ReplyDeleteEric asks Ryan if he doesn't make choices about things that he's not entirely sure of.
Ryan counters with the material existence of the people he's have these interactions with, as opposed to Eric's commitment to God/Jesus.
Eric just keeps pressing home that Ryan can't be 100% sure of his commitments.
Watching an astronomy show.
ReplyDeleteHere's some logic.
If we look at the galaxies, and notice that the close ones are rocketing away and the farther ones are not moving as fast and the farthest ones are moving even slower relatively, then that means that the universe is expanding, yes?
If we look at the universe and the close ones are moving towards us, the farther ones are moving away faster and faster the farther away they are, then conversely the universe HAVE BEEN expanding but has slowed down to the point it is collapsing!
What if the measurement is trying to 'define' the result?
If something has more red-shift it is farther away and moving faster.
Doesn't it logically follow that something very very far away moving towards us with simply be defined as something close, due to the spectrum shift being blue??
Upshot of this is that I don't think the universe is actually increasing it's expansion rate at all.
"the people he's have these interactions with"
ReplyDeleteWhat?
"then conversely the universe HAVE BEEN expanding but has slowed down"
What??
Mebbe I had a stroke or something. I don't notice these 'til I reread them.
Mi,
ReplyDeleteAs I watch the marches in Egypt that you seem worried about because they are Muslims, try comparing the TV shots of watts in a Christian nation. And you are worried about what???
About your socialism fears MI.
ReplyDeletePolitics is a con game. Every Republican will tell you that Abraham Lincoln was a Republican while it is obvious that the names got switched over, since Abraham Lincoln was a federalist, right(that means big government, to you).
Adolf Hitler conned the people into believing that they were the German Workers' Party for awhile, but he was anti-socialist, anti-communist and pro-corporation!
On the other side, every communist-style totalitarian government wants to call itself democratic and socialist too!!
Socialism, to me, means that we elect officials to control corporate excesses.
People living in an area shouldn't have to put up with just anything that the corporations in the area are willing to dish out to them.
If given a free hand, corporations will pollute the air and water, pay workers the least they can get away with. They'll pay workers not enough to live on if they're allowed.
Corporations will pay zero taxes, collect and process the resources for nothing, if they can, poison the local population and environment if they can get away with it and on and on.
How do we know this? Is this simply the impression we get from a few 'bad eggs' in the corporate world?
Well, that's what they'd have us believe, but the truth is that they do what they've always done.
Recent example, the Gulf Coast isn't BPs to destroy, is it?
Another weird example is the Goverment health-care plan. How can you possibly imagine that looking after the health of your citizens is some bid to take-over private property?
I don't understand you MI, it's like you're brain-washed by corporate propaganda that they're the 'good guys' looking out for you, when, in fact, they'd work you to death for nothing and not give it a second thought.
MI,
ReplyDelete"Harry, I especially valued your post.
But, I've got to tell you, truly I do not understand how you could "get" that I am one iota pro-oligarchy."
What? When did I say you were pro oligarchy? In fact who is pro oligarchy besides the bastards in power in an actual oligarchy?
pboy,
ReplyDeleteI'm a bit troubled by your post, I agreed with every damn thing you stated. This will have to change at some point.
What kind of world would it be if Celts weren't bickering?
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete"I'm a bit troubled by your post..."
ReplyDeleteLast post that is.
Just finished the Silmarillion for the umpteenth time. I can not see how one could not make the same case for Ilúvatar as Eric does for YHWH given his handy-dandy "revelation" vs. "inspiration" distinction.
ReplyDeleteRyan, have you been lurking on DC?
ReplyDeleteRyan, you're missing the obvious grammar of your objection, so let me spell it out:
ReplyDeleteIf S commits to P, but is uncertain about P, then [whatever you think the problem is].
Now it doesn't matter if P is uncertainty about the future quality of a child's life, uncertainty about a wife's loyalty, uncertainty about a god's existence, uncertainty about the consequences of political or moral choices, etc.
------------------
Uncertainty about unicorns, uncertainty about the boogeyman, uncertainty about gremlins...
The difference is, sane people know which exist and which do not. Because, once can see, touch, smell, sense the ones that do.
Your rendering it into an equation is a shallow attempt to equate the un-equatable.
You rely on an old book, and a lot of dead men that also relied on that old book.
So I had faith that my wife would love me, and she does, so it was a good gamble, if you will. I made it before and lost, but not this time.
You have faith in something that you can only read about, from one really, REALLY old, biased source with very questionable and biased editing, which even tells you that you will receive no actual confirmation until AFTER you die. Dumb.
The actual 'equation' as in, the actual equivalency here, is I met my wife and dated her, and you bought (and paid for in advance) a russian bride, sight unseen, which has not shown up, and are faithful that your now-depleted bank account will be worth it AFTER YOU DIE, at which point in time they inform you in the fine print that you'll actually meet her.
You sir, are the most erudite fool imaginable. If I divorce (find out I made a bad bet,) I've wasted a few years or whatever, but if you're wrong, you've wasted your ONE AND ONLY LIFE.
How 'bout you other guys? Would you marry someone if all you knew about her was from a book?
ReplyDeleteSeem a smart gamble to you?
Ahh Eric, it doesn't matter anymore. You have admitted that you have no faith in your god, so to you it's all a verbal exercise anyhow. All those pretty arguments too, and all you're left with is a sort-of agnosticism dressed up as a religion. You couldn't even convince yourself, and it's not as if you didn't try.
What a cop-out.
IMHO, when a christian gets to the point in an argument where they admit that they can't be sure of their own god's existence, the atheist has won the argument.
ReplyDeleteSo thanks for showing up, Eric. You get a home-version of the game on your way out......
(lol)
Well, there are two ways to take the word critically.
ReplyDeleteOne - sound reasoning
Two - criticize everyone and everything.
You're awesome the first way and the second way simply doesn't apply!
----------------
The resident fool missed the third one, since she also cannot think critically.
Question everything, most importantly yourself.
Period. That's it.
And when I say 'question' I mean everything, and do so honestly, not being afraid of any consequences (or perhaps in spite of your fears,) and not listening to others who tell you not to question.
So yes, even your faith, especially that, you MUST question constantly, if you wish to be a critical thinker.
Am I right? Could I be wrong? Could the atheists be right? All are valid questions. I mean, all of us have asked ourselves whether you could be right, but fortunately in your case there's reams of evidence proving you wrong, so that didn't take too long...
But he, don't bother your little brain over it... the best a fool can do anyhow is to ape it, and BELIEVE they've got it right. Just like you do love. Or empathy.
You're so sure you have it, that it becomes the reason that you do not.
Brian, you're wasting your time.
ReplyDeleteMI is likely one of these types who would happily tell you that America is NOT a democracy, it's a republic!
She'd likely say that freedom of religion is not freedom from religion.
She no doubt thinks we all just hate God 'cos we want to do drugs and steal her money to get them.
If you started dissing Mexicans, MI would likely deem you 'teachable'.
We KNOW that she thinks Jesus will heal her through the power of prayer and a monthly payment to an insurance company, but maybe she has stocks in an insurance company, we don't know.
She'd likely say something like, "Government, keep your hands off my medicare!", and mean the Democrats!
Ed; not since a couple months, why?
ReplyDeleteSo could we call this Eric’s “The Matrix isn’t that crazy, therefore Jesus” argument?
ReplyDeleteRyan,
ReplyDeleteBecause I (and another commenter) made reference to Tolkien's cosmology as an analog to Christianity.
Weird that you should make such a similar comment just then. (cue Twilight Zone theme...)
http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2011/01/why-former-conservatives-become.html#disqus_thread
That was a good post Ed. I thought it was interesting how you used Tolkien to criticize conservative christianity and Adam used him to criticize liberal christianity.
ReplyDelete"So could we call this Eric’s “The Matrix isn’t that crazy, therefore Jesus” argument?"
ReplyDeleteAre you for real? I've said nothing of the sort.
"IMHO, when a christian gets to the point in an argument where they admit that they can't be sure of their own god's existence, the atheist has won the argument."
So, by parity of reasoning, when an atheist says, I'm not saying that I'm 100% certain that god doesn't exist, the Christian has "won"? Because almost every atheist I know (online) says this, usually in a cowardly (and always unsuccessful) attempt to avoid any onus in the discussion.
"Ahh Eric, it doesn't matter anymore. You have admitted that you have no faith in your god, so to you it's all a verbal exercise anyhow."
What are you talking about? How in the world does, "Sure, I question my beliefs" entail, "I have no faith"? I think that's a double whammy: A logical non sequitur premised on utter ignorance of what the term 'faith' means. That's pretty sad: You set up a strawman and failed to knock it down!
"If I divorce (find out I made a bad bet,) I've wasted a few years or whatever, but if you're wrong, you've wasted your ONE AND ONLY LIFE."
What's this -- the atheist's version of Pascal's wager? Ed! Oh, Ed? Where are you, Ed?
"The actual 'equation' as in, the actual equivalency here, is [blah, blah, blah]"
If the rule is, you shouldn't commit yourself if you're uncertain about the outcome, then any commitment involving an uncertain outcome is a violation of that rule. *That's* the issue. In other words, Ryan's point, as he expressed it (how can you worship a god you're not 100% certain exists), is a dud.
So what do you do? Ignore my knocking down Ryan's Rule, and instead go on to question whether one situation is an instance of a worse violation of the rule I just knocked down than another situation is.
What's going on here? Are you guys PWI-ing (Posting While Intoxicated)? You used at least to be able to follow a line of argument. What's the deal?
Eric,
ReplyDeleteI think a lot of opposition to your ideas are the presentation, not the idea. You sometimes come across as an absolutist, like most Christians, and the result is, you're wrong, period. I think if you research ideas of communication, you will find if you did not already know, that the burden of understanding rest on the sender, and your sending leaves a lot to be desired. You seem to insist that everyone joins you in your type of argument instead of you taking responsibility in communicating your ideas in the way your audience can understand , and relate to without antagonism. I think what comes across as absolutism is antagonistic.
In other words, Ryan's point, as he expressed it (how can you worship a god you're not 100% certain exists), is a dud.
ReplyDeleteThat was not my point. I understand what faith is. My point was not to make an argument against god, there are plenty of other powerful arguments that handle that. My point was to show how silly you are. You are not certain there is a god, but you've taken up the mantel of internet crusader, and to justify it (in this specific case) you claim your belief and uncertainty are justified because we are all uncertain of everything to a certain degree.
Like I said you're head is lost in the theoretical.
What's going on here? Are you guys PWI-ing (Posting While Intoxicated)? You used at least to be able to follow a line of argument. What's the deal?
Douchey logic abuse fatigue is probably the cause for me...
"you claim your belief and uncertainty are justified because we are all uncertain of everything to a certain degree."
ReplyDeleteI did not say that. What I did was show that no one living a human life can consistently follow Ryan's Rule. That's it. Period. Full stop. I did not say, "so, since no one can follow Ryan's Rule, my beliefs are justified." So what does follow from what I said? Well, minimally that any resoning that's premised on Ryan's Rule (see Brian's post) is flawed.
"You sometimes come across as an absolutist, like most Christians"
Yes, an absolutist who is being accused of lacking faith altogether because I concede that I question my beliefs. Or an absolutist who concedes that atheism is rational. Or an absolutist who has repeatedly said that I'm not trying to show that my beliefs are true, but only that they can be rationally held.
That doesn't make much sense to me.
"I think what comes across as absolutism is antagonistic."
Jerry, I agree with your main point: I don't always choose the best way to communicate my ideas. My tone can be antagonistic. You're right.
But here's what confuses me: Do I come across that way to the extent that Brian, Floyd, Ryan, etc. do? My posts are, *by far*, dominated by arguments; their posts contain far more -- well, let's call them 'intentionally antagonistic' comments. How often have you brought this up with them? You may have done so, and I might have missed it, in which case this particular point of mine is wrong headed. But I can at least say that I've never seen (or don't remember seeing) you call them on it.
Jerry, are you a native Rhode Islander too?
ReplyDeleteWeasle. I can't imagine you don't know it too.
ReplyDeleteEric.
ReplyDeleteYou are right, I have not said much to many others about the way they phrase their ideas. The reason I said something to you is because I thought you were serious, and might be interested in the possibility you could get better communication. To me it makes no difference who is right, it does make a difference what is right. Hearing both sides, the Christians, and atheist, I think the atheist have much more correct than any religionist I have ever heard. That is in context with the idea I do have faith their is a god, it is just most of the Christians are little more than a stuck record on what they think. Most of the ideas you have presented on this blog, in my opinion is little more than mental masturbation repeating the ideas (in different words) that have long been rejected. By your latest posting I take it you had a spiritual experience that convinced you god was a reality, and now you are trying to convince others of that which you feel is real. If that is the case I think you are trying to put new wine in of old skins using old philosophy, good luck if that is the case.
"Weasle. I can't imagine you don't know it too."
ReplyDeleteNo, the true weasels are the atheists who say, "Hey, I just lack belief, I make no claims," and then go on to make a bunch of claims. What you don't like, Ryan, is that I've thought about the arguments seriously enough to formulate my conclusions so that they're not out too strong for the premises that support them. It's an important part of that critical thinking stuff you were talking about earlier in this thread. So I find it interesting that you now refer to it as 'being a weasel.'
Incidentally, the ultimate weasels are the radical skeptics. You're a radical skeptic, aren't you?
What you really don't like, though, is the fact that not all Christians are young earth believing, evolution denying, homosexual hating, ignorant biblical literalists. You cannot brook the possibility that some people are Christians for good reasons. You prefer beating up on creationists; you prefer easy targets. At least I enjoy talking to my fellow smart average Joes, and to those involved in this debate at its highest levels. I don't go around picking easy targets, and I don't knock smart atheists for being smart.
've thought about the arguments seriously enough to formulate my conclusions so that they're not out too strong for the premises that support them.
ReplyDeleteEric; I don't care what you believe, be it a young earth, a global flood, original sin or a living Christ or transubstantiation. But I don't think what you claimed above is true in the least. You don't even know if god exists and you don't have a personal relationship with Jesus, there's really no point to your belief, so all I suspect you've done is thought about it to the degree that you can justify your own desire to believe. Yes, I'm aware you were an "atheist" and loved Ayn Rand, but everyone I know who loved Ayn Rand seems a bit flawed, even after outgrowing her.
Eric:
ReplyDeleteSome of us here do not find our discussions to have as much emotional impact as do others. If one has come to atheism/agnosticism rorm a strict religious upbringing, especially when that upbringing was Christian, it may have been very painful and emotionally costly to break away, first fron belief/observance itself and then from family/social mileu, etc. If you read some of the atheist blogs you can easily see that what most of us miss (if we miss anything) is the community that our religious upbringing may have afforded. Since I believe you have told us that you were quite non-religious before you had your faith experience and subsequent logical/rational awakening to Catholicism, it may be that you have less emotional content as a result of that decision. At least a few of the posters I have followed here certainly seem to harbor some anger or disappointment in what they see as having been duped or even brainwashed by family, teachers and pastors. Little wonder then that you sometimes encounter negative responses or even hostility. As I have said, I find your logic quite sound (albeit expressed quite technically); it is your personally held premises
(?truths?) and perhaps the impression you give at times that we aren't very sharp if we cannot see the logical purity of your arguments.
If one has come to atheism/agnosticism rorm a strict religious upbringing, especially when that upbringing was Christian, it may have been very painful and emotionally costly to break away
ReplyDeleteYes.
On the M&M blog, I think Maddy admitted that she'd be fine with police stings to trap women seeking to murder their babies, if they made it illegal!
ReplyDeleteI put it to her that, since in Eire, abortion IS illegal, their police could catch women who would be known murderers according to Eire law!
How juicy is that to picture thousands of women being hanged for premeditated murder for the sake of a raging pro-LIFE agenda!
The mind boggles!
So, by parity of reasoning, when an atheist says, I'm not saying that I'm 100% certain that god doesn't exist, the Christian has "won"?
ReplyDelete-------------------
Um, are you serious? You're the one actually attempting to be specific, as in, stating that there is a god and then defining it for us.
Perhaps some atheists say that there is no god with certainty, but I do not. I admit the possibility of a 'prime mover' of some sort, albeit likely something we haven't even come close to thinking of yet... but you sir, are the one that actually has the hubris to define said creator, as the christian version, subcategory catholic. You are the one making the extraordinary (and extraordinarily specific) claim here, that requires extraordinary proofs...
And then of course you weasle out of it whenever you can't stand the heat.
Like now, for instance.
If the rule is, you shouldn't commit yourself if you're uncertain about the outcome, then any commitment involving an uncertain outcome is a violation of that rule. *That's* the issue. In other words, Ryan's point, as he expressed it (how can you worship a god you're not 100% certain exists), is a dud.
ReplyDelete------------------
You equate a woman to your deity. I may not be sure that a random woman I meet and date (in the past) loves me, but I am usually certain that she is a human being, and reasonable certain that she is a woman. Definitely certain by the second date, lol.
You equate one uncertainty with a sea of them, as in, I might not in that case be sure she loves me, but you not only can't be sure your god loves you, you can't be certain about your god's existence or about anything you know about him. And you've admitted this.
If I were talking about marrying an elf, then we'd be on the same page. Does she love me? Is she capable of love? Screw that, does she exist? That's the real question.
No, she does not.
PLUS, the whole point of worship is to have faith. You admit that you have none, since you aren't even sure your god exists. Any 'real' christian would call you out on that one, even a lot of catholics I know. Most catholics I know, in fact, and I know and have known quite a few in my day.
I can just hear one of your prayers:
"Dear God, should you exist..."
you will find if you did not already know, that the burden of understanding rest on the sender, and your sending leaves a lot to be desired.
ReplyDelete------------
YES JERRY!
However, he does this on purpose, since plain-spoken language is nowhere near as easy to manipulate to his (seeming, to him) advantage. So out comes aquinas and there go my eyes rolling back in my head.
I think what comes across as absolutism is antagonistic.
ReplyDelete-------------
Actually Jerry, that is not correct. I never perceive him as antagonistic. I perceive him as a bald-faced liar that loves to pull the fairy-tale wool over other's eyes, when he doesn't even really believe in it all himself.
Sorry about that Eric. Just being honest. Not meaning to offend, any more than you mean to offend me when you lie to me. Heck, perhaps you're convinced that I'll fall for the next whopper and thus be un-offended or something...
I should have concluded, that it's the lying that angers me, not so much because he's doing it to me, but because there are swarms of his type out there doing this to people wet-behind-the-ears enough to fall for it, and whammo! Another mind is lost to stupidity forever.
ReplyDeleteSmart-sounding stupidity. Which is somehow worse, to me.
If one has come to atheism/agnosticism rorm a strict religious upbringing, especially when that upbringing was Christian, it may have been very painful and emotionally costly to break away
ReplyDelete----------------
It still affects me. Yes. A very perceptive comment. That is indeed the very seat of my anger.
but everyone I know who loved Ayn Rand seems a bit flawed, even after outgrowing her.
ReplyDelete-----------
Tell me about it. They actually believe that the world works according to their ridiculously ideallized version of it. It's like they live in Gotham City or something, not a real place on earth.
Like thinking (a la rand paul) that we should allow private owners of restaurants to not allow blacks in if they don't want them. They actually believe (get this!) that the *free market* will take care of it, as in, that the establishments will not flourish due to lack of business and the problem will self-correct!
I mean, that's so pathetically gullibly stupid it's almost cute. AS IF all the closet racists wouldn't drive three states away to patronize such a place were it to open. And incidentally, who does the owner call when a black guy walks in and sits down? Why, that'd be the police. And I don't want my tax dollars spent on forcibly ejecting negroes from woolworth's...
Stupid people. Ayn Rand was a retard. What a sicko.
Ayn Rand is more smart-sounding stupidity, incidentally.
ReplyDeletePlus it appeals to white people's white egos.
ReplyDeleteEric, do you love God?
ReplyDeleteYour answer surely must be yes.
If so, if yes, then please explain to me how you love something that you admit might not exist.
If not, if your answer is no, then hey, that's set and match anyhow, isn't it?
So it must be yes.
Can you tell me how you love a thing that you aren't even sure exists. Is it some kind of conditional statement in your mind, like 'Dear God, I love you with all my heart and soul if you happen to be real; if not I'd rather not know because then I'm an idiot,' etc?
If one has come to atheism/agnosticism rorm a strict religious upbringing, especially when that upbringing was Christian, it may have been very painful and emotionally costly to break away
ReplyDelete----------------
It still affects me. Yes. A very perceptive comment. That is indeed the very seat of my anger.
Would that be the feeling of betrayal?
Eric said...
ReplyDeleteJerry, are you a native Rhode Islander too?
January 31, 2011 7
I am from Iowa, a farm guy, and now live in Boise, ID. By the way of extensively visiting all states and living in Iowa, TX, WY, NV, OR, WA, Ca, AZ, NM.
Jerry; I know you mentioned being from Iowa before, but I had forgotten it. Most of my family is from Des Moines and Mason City. A fried pork tenderloin sandwich and jello "salad" from HyVee is one of life's great joys.
ReplyDeleteOf course I'm not 100% certain Iowa exists, therefore Eric's warrented to believe whatever he wants...
ReplyDeletefloyd- your assumptions in your most previous post are so incorrect and far-reaching.
ReplyDeleteI forget who said I think a cetain way about atheists....it's wrong.
Perhaps I am just one of those few who beats that stereotypical thinking....
Harry, re-check your posts.
Harvey, you've got it wroong way round in your thinking in re to Christian marriages and the rest of the bs you mention in regards to secular marriage.
Brian, you've spoken volumees in dodging me.
Eric, I'm disappointed in your lack of a reply.
As for Egypt; don't read so much in to it. Just look at the revolution and also those in Europe and see what happens in the near future in the world.
floyd. I didn't get to read your post about my supposed fear @ socialism.
I will when I get some time, though it would seem that you and I are not on the same page, not even in the same book.
I used to think you all just didn't want to deal with the direct issues posed to you, but perhaps it can be chalked up to people on this blog just having their heads on "different pages".
Either way, it's a red flag to me to take a break from all of it and put my energies into prayer and homeschooling and cooking new recipes :)
Oh, my husband saw on the History Channel "EXODUS: Decoded" last night. Did anyone else? Anyway, it's just FYI incase you're interested in looking for the re-run on it.
Also --- another fyi---- some of today's articles on "www.spiritdaily.com" might be of interest to some of you. It's a newspaper so there are articles on Egypt, the weather, healthy eating, etc as well as other articles on faith, etc.
Blessings to all.
Ryan,
ReplyDeleteI have a son in Fort Worth, and he often comments missing those tenderloin sandwiches. It seems to be an Iowa speciality. According to the weather I am double glad not to be in Iowa right now. Of course that goes for the NE part of the country. LOL
Brian, as for questioning everything- there's not problem I have with that.
ReplyDeleteI simply follow reason,fact,truth and reality and reach valid conclusions. And, then I take that into my life and move on with it. Common sense dictates that doubting must sometime be replaced with peace; having reached and end - that is an answer to a question of which things are in doubt. Perhaps not all doubts can be answered....but in the end, it's the reconciling to a peaceful life that accepts that some things may never be answered for an individual. However, at the same time, that person can also be reconciled in hoping that those douts, one day, just might be answered ;)
Oh, also, I feel for you concerning the anger that you still have in you all these years since deciding to leave your faith. I hope that as time goes by more and more gets resolved for you and that peace replaces anger.
That goes out to any and all to whom it which this applies....
Hugs to you guys! Be good!
Oh, Jerry!
ReplyDeleteDo you or your wife/girlfriend and Mom have any really good recipes for potato bread???
I would love to know of any----PLEASE?!
I would be most grateful to you.
I'm looking for a "substantially nutritious" sort of potato bread.
You would truly rock if you could help me out. Sure, I could google, but if you have any special, homemade recipes....
Thanks!!
MI
PS. You could also feel free to leave it at my alter email address: thomasmch663@aol.com
Okay, I just ran across this and I know you guys are want to see this.
ReplyDeleteIt's entitled, "ATHEISM, the Opium of the masses".
here's link to the short video:
http://frjeffreysteel.blogspot.com/2011/01/fr-barron-atheism-opium-of-masses.html
It would be interesting to hear what you guys have to say about it.
Does this guy not understand that there is a limited area of space on the side of a bus? It seemed his entire point was that “New Atheism" is not serious because this bus has a throw away slogan on it. “New Atheism" might not be serious, but he didn’t substantiate that claim in any way.
ReplyDeleteRelated to the video, I think the Argument from Desire fails because the premise is that we have a “longing for god”, but that’s so vague that I don’t think it’s of any value. My personal take on the AoD is not that we “long for god”, but that we long for the stuff god can give us, i.e. eternal life or avoidance of death amongst other things. So it doesn’t really doesn’t prove god exists in the same way hunger proves food exists, it merely proves life and death exist.
"It's entitled, "ATHEISM, the Opium of the masses"."
ReplyDeleteYea, sure. The fact that there are no gods at all gives me great peace.
Not as long as religion is being used to sanctify the crazy right it doesn't.
He say, ".. your hunger proves the existence of food..", then goes on to say, "..I'm going to turn something around.."
ReplyDeleteThis is excellent rhetoric. Your hunger proves the existence of food?
So, I guess that your eyes prove the existence of light?
But there is that small detail, that assertion that we are hard-wired to have this supposed 'hunger for God'.
Another point, apparently we're not just smart dogs like 'the atheists would have it', no.
MI, with her God, IS like a smart dog though, by implication.
Eric, with his God, IS like a smart dog though, by implication.
Just not us atheists.
Or are you guys saying that even WITH your God, you're still hungering, you're STILL not satisfied?
Ian; I think the real version of the argument from desire, which the priest didn’t really articulate, makes a couple errors. As I understand the argument, we have desires for things that exist in this world (food, oxygen, love) but not for things that don’t exist. But since we are never satisfied, we always have “an unattainable desire”, so there must exist, outside this world, a source for that desire. I think that’s doesn’t work for a few reasons, 1) presupposes that everyone's "unattainable desire" has the same source, 2) it presupposes that the whatever "the unattainable desire" is, it doesn't actually exist in the world/universe somewhere and 3) it presupposes that everyone in the world actually has “unattainable desires".
ReplyDeleteYes of course he is turning the tables on the old, 'Religion is the opiate of the masses.', saying.
ReplyDeleteThis is the logical fallacy called tu quoque. He's not trying to hide it, in fact he's bragging that he is doing it.
If we create an analogy we can see how he's not making any sense, no matter how brilliantly he isn't.
If we are hard-wired to seek God, like a fire in our hearts and finding God is like a bucket of water then, he is saying that atheists DON'T HAVE that fire in their hearts, that hard-wiring, and they OUGHT TO, that is what religion is FOR.
We'll keep the bucket of water handy!
But the bucket of water is religion, isn't it?
You have your desires for sex and power and so on, and find them lacking. Find God and you're hunky-dory.
Isn't religion just using our basic competitiveness against us here?
The guys is saying that religion quells your basic competitiveness, but atheists don't see religion as the antidote, and they damned well should!
But of course he thinks that way, of course he does.
Can you not see where he is wrong here, MI?
We KNOW food is the antidote to hunger because we eat it all the time! Using his other comparison, dogs are hungry all the time! Where does that leave him except preaching to the choir?
As usual.
Do go on, do I hear you say MI?
ReplyDeletehehe.
I think that theists are trying to twist our natural desires to their agenda here.
Sex is a primal drive, hormone driven. Why is it that we don't see men and women having sex all the time?
Why is it that we don't walk around naked ready to hump or be humped?
It's not that we're naturally ashamed of sex, it can't be since making oneself look sexual is a huge industry which has become totally unconnected to a woman's natural desire to have sex, especially with any male that happens to be passing.
Seems to me that all mammals are hard-wired to live some kind of society where dominance, or hierarchy is important.
This diverting into some kind of quest for 'God' is simply the smooth-tongued quest for a dominance structure unrelated to physical strength.
MI,
ReplyDelete"Harry, re-check your posts."
That was Jerry, not Harry.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteJust now saw this...
ReplyDelete"What's this -- the atheist's version of Pascal's wager? Ed! Oh, Ed? Where are you, Ed?"
ROFL!
"I think the Argument from Desire fails because the premise is that we have a “longing for god”, but that’s so vague that I don’t think it’s of any value. My personal take on the AoD is not that we “long for god”, but that we long for the stuff god can give us, i.e. eternal life or avoidance of death amongst other things."
ReplyDeleteYou're pretty close here. Of course, if the argument from desire (AFD) was premised upon, "all people have a longing for god," it would be problematic. But that's not how it's usually formulated.
We all long not simply for justice in a particular case, but for justice in every case -- for perfect, unlimited justice. (If you say you don't, then you're saying you're fine with some injustice.)
We all long not simply for the truth about one thing, but for the truth about everything -- for perfect, unlimited truth. (If you say you don't, then you're saying that you're fine with some falsehoods.)
We could go on to discuss other things we desire in an unlimited, perfect manner: beauty, happiness, relationships, etc. (and the ways the claim that you don't want such things in an unlimited way entails that you're fine with the imperfections that follow).
Another way to put it is, what we desire is truth itself, justice itself, beauty itself, etc.
So, in light of this, let's look at your objections (continued):
"2) it presupposes that the whatever "the unattainable desire" is, it doesn't actually exist in the world/universe somewhere"
ReplyDeleteI think it's safe to say that unlimited, perfect justice, beauty, truth, etc. do not exist in this world. That's easy to demonstrate -- take justice: if it existed perfectly and without limits in this world, then there would be no injustice. But there is injustice, so perfect and unlimited justice do not exist in this world.
"3) it presupposes that everyone in the world actually has “unattainable desires"."
I've already addressed this in part: to claim not to desire perfect justice is to claim to be satisfied with some degree of injustice. (Now sure, there are some people who either do not have or who suppress this desire, but that's not important: what matters is what a normal, properly ordered human being desires.)
"1) presupposes that everyone's "unattainable desire" has the same source"
Yes, you're right about this one. But that presupposition is premised on *other* arguments that show that, for example, god is Goodness itself, that there can only be one such being, etc. But this argument itself does not lead directly to the conclusion that god exists (without being supplemented by those other arguments, anyway); what it does is point us in the right direction. Here's professor Peter Kreeft on the argument's conclusion:
"The conclusion of the argument is not that everything the Bible tells us about God and life with God is really so. What it proves is an unknown X, but an unknown whose direction, so to speak, is known. This X is more: more beauty, more desirability, more awesomeness, more joy. This X is to great beauty as, for example, great beauty is to small beauty or to a mixture of beauty and ugliness. And the same is true of other perfections.
"But the "more" is infinitely more, for we are not satisfied with the finite and partial. Thus the analogy (X is to great beauty as great beauty is to small beauty) is not proportionate. Twenty is to ten as ten is to five, but infinity is not to twenty as twenty is to ten. The argument points down an infinite corridor in a definite direction. Its conclusion is not "God" as already conceived or defined, but a moving and mysterious X which pulls us to itself and pulls all our images and concepts out of themselves.
"In other words, the only concept of God in this argument is the concept of that which transcends concepts, something "no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the human heart conceived" (1 Cor 2:9). In other words, this is the real God."
Eric said,
ReplyDelete"Yes, an absolutist who is being accused of lacking faith altogether because I concede that I question my beliefs. Or an absolutist who concedes that atheism is rational. Or an absolutist who has repeatedly said that I'm not trying to show that my beliefs are true, but only that they can be rationally held."
That one is going into the archives...
Eric; your first comment, that's how the priest formulated it, that's what I was responding to.
ReplyDeleteYou said, I think it's safe to say that unlimited, perfect justice, beauty, truth, etc. do not exist in this world.
Put "perfect" in front of pretty much any word and you can claim it doesn't exist. And that was my point, we don't desire perfect x even if we think we do (because perfect is a worthless term), we desire x to some degree more than we have it in this mixed up messed up jumbled up world.
"It would be interesting to hear what you guys have to say about it."
ReplyDeleteRyan said it. He presupposes Sarte and Camus were correct. To me it follows that a culturally ingrained belief which leads to significant cognitive dissonance because it goes against our very sensory experiences is still going to demand satiation even if it's abandoned.
Atheism is quite peaceful, but the process of escaping religion's clutches isn't. I feel bad for Sartre, because of a certain cultural tolerance, the rest of us can have a peace he never knew.
"..but infinity is not to twenty as twenty is to ten."
ReplyDeleteBut infinity is not a number. There is no actual number that it is not possible to count to.
"..justice, beauty, truth, etc."
Bunch of stuff you can equivocate on here.
Isn't something either just or unjust?
Isn't something either true or untrue?
etc.?
Ian said "but infinity is not a number.
ReplyDeleteI should have read the rest of Eric's post as it turns out I said basically the same thing as Peter Kreeft, but to be honest I lost interest when I read "Peter Kreeft...".
It's interesting to me how an apologist can take the idea that we want to make things better (x+1) ("point[ing] down an infinite corridor in a definite direction") as anything more than we are trying to make things better.
I guess if you want to see god (whatever god means) you'll see it in whatever you look at.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteFor perspective, here is Peter Kreef explaining to us all about ghosts.
ReplyDeleteYes, that's poisoning the well, but seriously? WTF???
ReplyDeleteI recommend these lectures to anyone who doubts whether Kreeft is to be taken seriously.
ReplyDelete"Put "perfect" in front of pretty much any word and you can claim it doesn't exist. And that was my point, we don't desire perfect x even if we think we do (because perfect is a worthless term), we desire x to some degree more than we have it in this mixed up messed up jumbled up world."
ReplyDeleteRyan, so if you had to choose between a world without injustice, a world where everything is put to rights, a world in which justice reigns, or a world where there's "some degree more" justice than we have it in this world, you'd choose the former, not the latter? Really? If so, what injustices would you rather keep in the world? And if you'd rather have the former, then is that not a desire?
That should be, "you'd choose the latter, not the former?"
ReplyDeleteBut a hypothetical choice doesn't point us to anything at all, now does it?
ReplyDelete"But a hypothetical choice doesn't point us to anything at all, now does it?"
ReplyDeleteAll the "hypothetical choice" is meant to clarify is *what* you desire. The pointing comes later. What you desire is one premise in the argument.
I know it's difficult to admit, Ryan, but face it: You prefer justice to injustice. And the more the justice and the less injustice, the better. Indeed, you'd prefer it if there were no injustice at all. You're a lover of justice.
Can't you at least admit that?
Ryan, so if you had to choose between a world without injustice, a world where everything is put to rights, a world in which justice reigns, or a world where there's "some degree more" justice than we have it in this world, you'd choose the former, not the latter?
ReplyDeleteI'd choose a world with a land that's fair and bright, where the handouts grow on bushes and you sleep out every night, where the boxcars are all empty and the sun shines every day on the birds and the bees and the cigarette trees, where the lemonade springs where the bluebird sings. Where the cops have wooden legs, and the bulldogs all have rubber teeth and the hens lay soft boiled eggs. The farmer's trees are full of fruit and the barns are full of hay. A place where there ain't no snow, where the rain don't fall and the wind don't blow. I'd choose the Big Rock Candy Mountains.
Sorry, that last post should've been directed at Floyd, not Ryan.
ReplyDeleteI know it's difficult to admit, Ryan, but face it: You prefer justice to injustice.
ReplyDeleteThat's not difficult to admit at all??? But I still fail to see how x+1 gets you to god.
Eric said,
ReplyDelete"But here's what confuses me: Do I come across that way to the extent that Brian, Floyd, Ryan, etc. do? My posts are, *by far*, dominated by arguments; their posts contain far more -- well, let's call them 'intentionally antagonistic' comments. How often have you brought this up with them? You may have done so, and I might have missed it, in which case this particular point of mine is wrong headed. But I can at least say that I've never seen (or don't remember seeing) you call them on it."
I've called Brian on it a couple of times.
I've disagreed with Peeb, Brian and Harry on occasion, and haven't held back just for the sake of "no dissent in the ranks".
"Indeed, you'd prefer it if there were no injustice at all. You're a lover of justice.
ReplyDeleteCan't you at least admit that?"
What I believe about justice is that others may say they long for justice but they do not.
There's plenty gamesmanship in sports, that's not justice for the players or the fans.
There's the corporate personalities insulating so called 'justice seekers' from the injustice of businesses they invest in.
There's our drive to reproduce caring not a pfft about justice.
There's our drive to dominate, the feeling that we deserve to be the boss, to be in charge, to get our own way.
Eric,
ReplyDeleteYou realize when we do argue/debate (and we do) it's about something other than religion don't you? When you jump into fray and we start debating that specific topic, there's going to be some allowance for rhetoric. What are we, inhuman robots?
"When you jump into fray and we start debating that specific topic, there's going to be some allowance for rhetoric. What are we, inhuman robots?"
ReplyDeleteOf course, I understand that. But when rhetoric disguises sloppy thinking, we can say so, can't we? Ryan rightly called me on it earlier in this thread.
Ed, yes, and I appreciate your honesty and consistency.
ReplyDeleteI did? I must have been PWI... :)
ReplyDeleteHere's professor Peter Kreeft on the argument's conclusion:
ReplyDelete"The conclusion of the argument is not that everything the Bible tells us about God and life with God is really so. What it proves is an unknown X, but an unknown whose direction, so to speak, is known. This X is more: more beauty, more desirability, more awesomeness, more joy. This X is to great beauty as, for example, great beauty is to small beauty or to a mixture of beauty and ugliness. And the same is true of other perfections.
I would agree if the same was said about thousands of other books. Also how about the barbaric ugliness in the bible, is that x or y?
I have to wonder if one uses the imagination to prove there is a direction to, shall I say a higher reality, how about the paranoid schizophrenic? You know there is no way either can proves their direction is reality except using a democracy type of system. Of course we could label everyone's take as being their reality in which case the writers of the bible was just saying what they imagined was reality which is probably as close to the truth as it is possible to get. Surprising how many people bow down to our ancestors imagined musings, and try to pass them off as though they had inherent authority.
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ReplyDelete"Of course, I understand that. But when rhetoric disguises sloppy thinking, we can say so, can't we? Ryan rightly called me on it earlier in this thread."
ReplyDeleteFor what it's worth, and not that you've noticed, but when one of us thinks you have a point we say so... well, not peeb :) But that doesn't mean he won't.
Look, why don't you join in when we're arguing about politics?
Ryan and I are social libertarians (Pliny too I think), Brian's a hardcore democrat, Ed's a Republican, peeb's a straight up socialist, and Harvey... actually I don't know if he's politically affiliated. Point being we've gotten into it about politics and we'll probably do so again.
Also, Brian has a metaphysical theory none of the regulars agrees with. Which, surprise, means you are inadvertently in the same camp with the rest of us when it comes to his BB idea! Oh my.
Truth is though, I think you like going up against "Goliath." I think you like debate more than an exchange of ideas. There are some pretty interesting people who post "here," maybe you should be human for once and have a conversation instead of an argument.
Harry; I don't think Eric understands that this is a pub, and not a classroom.
ReplyDelete"There are some pretty interesting people who post "here," maybe you should be human for once and have a conversation instead of an argument."
ReplyDeleteGood point, Harry.
Re: politics, I'm a Burkean conservative, so I'd add a bit of diversity to that mix, too. We're a bit rare in the U.S. today, when most people seem to have an idea of conservatism that has been shaped by Limbaugh, Hannity, et al (who have more in common with classical liberalism than conservatism).
Eric said...
ReplyDelete"When you jump into fray and we start debating that specific topic, there's going to be some allowance for rhetoric. What are we, inhuman robots?"
Of course, I understand that. But when rhetoric disguises sloppy thinking, we can say so, can't we? Ryan rightly called me on it earlier in this thread.
February 1, 2011 8:55 PM
"We all long not simply for justice in a particular case, but for justice in every case -- for perfect, unlimited justice. (If you say you don't, then you're saying you're fine with some injustice.)
We all long not simply for the truth about one thing, but for the truth about everything -- for perfect, unlimited truth. (If you say you don't, then you're saying that you're fine with some falsehoods.)"
You are saying that using we as all inclusive is not sloppy thinking? Sounds like you are on a one way street.
I'm a Burkean conservative
ReplyDeleteOf course you are...
Eric said (sorry, I'm getting caught up again!):
ReplyDelete"We all long not simply for justice in a particular case, but for justice in every case -- for perfect, unlimited justice. (If you say you don't, then you're saying you're fine with some injustice.)
We all long not simply for the truth about one thing, but for the truth about everything -- for perfect, unlimited truth. (If you say you don't, then you're saying that you're fine with some falsehoods.)
We could go on to discuss other things we desire in an unlimited, perfect manner: beauty, happiness, relationships, etc. (and the ways the claim that you don't want such things in an unlimited way entails that you're fine with the imperfections that follow)."
First paragraph: Anyone who is realistic knows that utiopian ideals are not to be found in this world. Does that mean I'm OK with "some injustice"? No. Does it mean that I should turn my back on injustice, since I can never abolish it utterly? Again, no. What then, can I do as an individual who sees injustice and is NOT ok with letting it ride? First, I can make sure that I commit no unjust acts. If I want to take it further, I could choose a career in the justice professions (police, law, judiciary, legislature), and make my stand against injustice public. None of this requires, points to or is otherwise dependent upon there being a "perfect realm" where God reigns. THAT is just a pipe dream.
(continued.)
"Of course you are..."
ReplyDeleteI have no idea what that means.
"Anyone who is realistic knows that utiopian ideals are not to be found in this world. Does that mean I'm OK with "some injustice"? No."
ReplyDeleteYou missed the point, Ed. The issue is, do you desire unlimited justice, beauty, etc.? If not, then it follows necessarily that you must be "ok with some injustice." Whether unlimited justice is possible is irrelevant. This premise only establishes your desires. So, would you prefer a world put to rights, or a world with some injustice in it?
Second paragraph:
ReplyDeleteFalse dichotomy. The incomplete quest for ultimate "trooth" does not have at it's other end "I'm OK with some falsehoods".
It has "I don't have an answer for that".
Third paragraph: Value judgements, and all subjective. Again, it's not "imperfections" (because there are no "perfect" things in our mundane existence; which does not logically flow into "then there IS a realm where perfection does, indeed exist") that are the real problem, it's our dissatisfaction with less than absolute X,Y,Z...
Desire is immaterial. What I want doesn't matter. It's observably not the case that what I want is even possible.
ReplyDeleteEric said,
ReplyDelete"You missed the point, Ed. The issue is, do you desire unlimited justice, beauty, etc.? If not, then it follows necessarily that you must be "ok with some injustice.""
Still not buying it. Of course I desire a world that is better than what we experience; however, that does NOT mean I'm OK with some injustice". It's a matter of pragmatism to acknowledge that it exists whether I like it or not. That's not the same as being "OK with it".
What MATTERS is how I deal with it. What I do to make it better. Just because we're atheists doesn't make us uncaring robots.
ReplyDeletePerfection, gentlemen (and Harry), can be found here.
ReplyDeleteShe is as close as I've ever encountered.
Eric,
ReplyDeleteBefore I investigate Burkean Conservatism, could you make a few distinctions about it as opposed to neo or moderate conservatism?
mac,
ReplyDeleteApologies, I don't think of you as political. Nora looked pretty by the way.
There's something about a woman's flushed face with a bit of light sweat that's really attractive. I wonder why...
Speaking of desire...
ReplyDeleteWhat's not to desire here?
Chainmail.
ReplyDeleteI bet that would hurt if she doesn't shave.
You could offer to shave her, Harry. I bet she'd be receptive....
ReplyDelete;-)
ReplyDeleteSome perspectiveon how much it sucks where I am:
ReplyDeleteThe monster storm is expected to pass by SOUTH of here. We'll get windy and cold, but only a couple inches of snow.