Wednesday, August 25, 2010

It's a Jewish Country.

(A flight of imagination)

The United States of America is a Jewish country. It was founded by Jews. More than 85% of the population is Jewish, with small minorities of Muslims and Christians and a smattering of other faiths. That’s the mix in this country, as everyone knows.

On September 11th, 2001, as we are all so painfully aware, a group of radical right-wing Christians from other countries hijacked two airplanes and flew them into the World Trade Center, destroying it, along with thousands of American lives. Mostly Jewish lives of course, although quite a few Muslims and even a few dozen Christians died in the attack that day.

Now a group of so-called ‘moderate’ Christians actually want to build a CHURCH a few blocks away from the attack site. Right near the ‘hallowed ground’ of ‘Ground Zero!’

This is obviously a terrible thing to do, right on the face of it. The sensitivities of all those good American Jews who lost friends and relatives, mothers and fathers and sons and daughters in the 9/11 attacks are being trodden upon; they can hardly be expected to sit by while a so-called moderate Christian group tries in such an obvious manner to put stick into their eye. Why, it's practically spiteful.

What are those ‘moderate’ Christians even thinking? We’re good enough to tolerate their religion here, and of course they have a constitutional right to build their church wherever they want to, but really this is too much!

Why, the very idea of Christians building a church there is a lot like a group of neo-Nazis wanting to build an ‘Aryan cultural center’ right next to the Wailing Wall!

Sure they say that they’re moderate Christians and not radicals like those who killed so many of our people on 9/11. And they say that they’re trying to ‘build bridges’ between our two communities by doing this. But this is a bridge too far. If they really were sensitive to our needs here, sensitive to our Jewish feelings, then they’d build it somewhere else, right? They'd get the hell out of there. That place is reserved for us. For Real Americans who feel the pain of 9/11.

If they want to get us to like them, best to go away, build somewhere else, and not bother us like that, not hurt us like that, no?

So it's in their own self-interest to go away. It's a 'win-win.'

I mean, after all, they should know how scared we all are now of their religion. If it can even be called a religion; why, it's more of an ideology or a political movement when you really look at it.

So why try to build it there of all places, if not to taunt us?

I mean, c'mon! Christianity is the religion of those who attacked us! They did it for their religion! For Jesus! That’s what they said! So obviously we need to take a closer look at this Christianity, be more aware of it, be more proactive. Looking at history it's obvious that Christianity is a religion of conquest and war, a religion of hatred and death, no matter that some of them insist that it's really a religion of peace and love of others. Sure, some of them claim to be ‘moderates’ but you can’t trust that, as evidenced by how many Christians right here in this country have become radicalized. They’re very active on the Internet, and they recruit American Christians to their side from their terrorist safe-havens in Rome and England.

And Texas.

No, they should know; they should realize that the best thing they can do for themselves is to build that church elsewhere. They need to know their place. They can’t pretend that only some of their most radical believers do these horrible things anymore. We're onto them now, thank God for Fox News. They can’t pretend that they’re Good Americans like us anymore; we know better. They must accept their share of the blame for what they’ve done, all of them, and build it somewhere else.

Not in my backyard of course, but somewhere else.

It's not that I have anything *against* Christians of course. I'm not a bigot. I'm just thinking of them here.

It's for their own good.

***

(And also, some people are saying that the President is a closet Christian and carries the ‘seed’ of Christianity! His mother, apparently, was 'one of them!' Pass it along...)

Shalom.

339 comments:

  1. I see where you went with the reshuffling of the religions Brian, but even though the 'bad' guys have the Constitutional right to build where they want, it's a sensitivity issue.

    Much like most Americans shun hand-guns and assault rifles and such in favour of weapons which might have some use other than killing people on account of the sensitivity of that issue.

    Much like the corporations would never dream of buying seats for candidates who are 'in their pocket' because it would make a mockery of democracy, another sensitivity issue.

    Much like conservatism could never be hi-jacked by the wealthy, for the wealthy using entertainers to simply disagree with everything, they're too sensitive to the ideal of democracy.

    .. and so on.

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  2. If you see where I'm going then why didn't I understand your answer?

    It's not a sensitivity issue. It's an issue of the majority not being able to see the issue from the minority's viewpoint. The viewpoint of peaceful, moderate muslims who are appalled at what the terrorists did on 9/11 and who only want to be accepted as Americans, and who know that allowing the voices of far-right paranoia and fear and whipped-up xenophobia to win here would be nothing but a huge step in the wrong direction for them. If they keel over on this, they become the far right's whipping dogs. Which is what the far right wants.

    Better to build it and demonstrate how good it is for the area and the community and how they are a part of that community. Better to educate than to run like you did something wrong.

    You don't defeat the haters and win over the ignorant by obeying them when they tell you to screw.

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  3. I really loved Mayor Bloomberg's speech on the subject. Well worth reading.

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  4. Shit pboy, your irony went through me like a neutrino there, didn't it?

    I'm slow today. Dammit. Well done, sir.

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  5. When both individuals in a converstion are intent upon making a point through irony, ironically enough, their "points" sometimes are somewhat obscured. Very nice posts, both of you!

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  6. Yeah, I realized that, a bit too late though. I'm not usually quite that dense. Pboy's reply was artful and I guess I was more into speechifying than paying attention. And besides, I should have known him better.

    This issue is, to me, really pathetic. Pisses me off. It makes our country look just like the terrorists think it is. Gives them loads of propaganda for their recruitment drives. How stupid have we become?

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  7. I think the name the Islamic Center chose for itself casts a shadow on what their intentions are. Given his support of Hamas, the conspiracy nut in me wonders if they are trying to get a rise out of us to justify further attacks.

    But since we are taking flights of imagination, it's not like it would be in good taste (or good for one's health) to build the "Charles Martel Center for Peace Studies" two blocks from the K'aba.

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  8. I think the name the Islamic Center chose for itself casts a shadow on what their intentions are.
    ------------
    You mean Cordoba house, the name they changed once they realized there was a problem with it?

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  9. You sound a bit suspicious. I suppose there is always a chance that there is some 'nefarious purpose' to them wanting to build it there, but do you really want to live in the country that disallows religious freedom because of suspicions? Isn't it better for all involved if we are gracious about letting them build it there regardless? For then we can keep an eye on it, and also it doesn't offend every muslim in *the frigging world.* It doesn't give them yet another thing to point to and say 'see, we told you they were barbarians!' And it doesn't marginalize all muslims in this country as lesser people, second class citizens. There are, definitely, after all, many or even most muslims who live here who are innocent of all that 'we the people' are thinking of them here, are as appalled as we are about 9-11, and genuinely wish to build bridges and not burn them preemptively, no?

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  10. Brian: "You sound a bit suspicious. I suppose there is always a chance that there is some 'nefarious purpose' to them wanting to build it there...

    ...but do you really want to live in the country that disallows religious freedom because of suspicions?


    Those two things aren't mutually exclusive.

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  11. Sensitivity seems the issue here.

    So people are sensitive to muslims building what they see as a mosque 'so close' to ground zero.

    It would bother them.

    Hurt them.

    Why exactly?

    Because they are comforted by their mistaken impression that all muslims are to blame, comforted by their hatred of all muslims, justified in their mind by the 9-11 killings. They feel uncomfortable relinquishing the idea that all muslims, the religion of islam itself, is to blame. They're sensitive to the issue because they are comfortable right where they are, thanks very much. Hating all islam for the crimes of a few right-wingers.

    This whole thing was generated by our right wingers. It's not america or even christianity against islam. It's RIGHT WING Christianity agianst RIGHT WING islam. As it's been for millennia. They generate the conversation, and the fearful and ignorant (and religious, but that goes without saying) all fall in line, since it 'feels right.' Our right wing is very adept at playing on the feelings and sentiments of the public, especially on their fear. This is just another page of it. They need an enemy to get elected, so they find one, and the sheeple are led to it by the nose with no complaints.

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  12. Those two things aren't mutually exclusive.
    -----------
    Care to 'splain, or you happy just leaving that there for me to ponder? Heh heh...

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  13. I can be suspicious (I'm honestly suprised you are not) and absolutely recognize every us citizens private property rights.

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  14. I can be suspicious (I'm honestly suprised you are not) and absolutely recognize every us citizens private property rights.
    ----------------
    Trust, yet verify. That's where I draw my line. Where do you draw yours? I'm suspicious, but am also conscious that it is easy to be too suspicious. So that's why I said, if you note sir, that if they build it, we can keep an eye on it. You really think if we convince them to not build it, and they had 'nefarious purposes' in mind, that they'll all pack up and go 'back where they came from' or whatever? Um, they'd only do something nefarions from a base that we don't have a close eye on.

    I'm looking at the whole thing, and what I'm seeing about the 'sensitifity' as explained just above, trumps the 'suspicion' factor here. If more info comes in, I would adjust accordingly. But as I see it now, this is driven by the far right hate machine, and america's common xenophibic tendencies in *times of stress.* Read what I say about 'what are they sensitive about' above and tell me that I'm all wet here. If I am, I'd like to have that data.

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  15. All I know is, because of this issue, people like the NYC taxi driver get to have his neck and face slashed by a 'patriot' yelling 'salaam aliekum, here's your checkpoint' while trying to provide for his four kids. I see it from his eyes, too, and I can't stand what I'm seeing. So what if they are 'allowed' to build it now? The hate is out of the bag, it's open now... Not building it would still be the worse option by far, but it's too late for more sensible heads to rule anymore. Violence is happening. Some guy walked into a mosque today, I forget in which state, and urinated on their prayer rugs while screaming 'all muslims are terrorists!' Did you catch that one? The ugly is starting to take over.

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  16. Evan Kohlmann, senior partner of the New York-based security consulting firm Flashpoint Global Partners, says radical Islamists see a propaganda and recruitment opportunity in the New York mosque controversy as well as other manifestations of anti-Muslim feeling.

    "The reaction is, at least on the part of extremists, fairly gleeful - that America is playing into our hands, that America is revealing its ugly face, and that even if it doesn't further radicalize people in the Middle East, there's no doubt that it will radicalize a kind of a key constituency that al-Qaida and other extremists are seeking to covet, seeking to court, which is the small number of homegrown extremists here in the United States," Kohlmann said.

    link

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  17. People are sensitive to muslims building there because it would remind them of who perpetrated 9-11. Or because they're offended that the muslims would 'dare' to do this 'on purpose' which again conflates the good guys with the bad guys. So if I were a genuine moderate muslim right now, I'd be very afraid. America hates my ass.

    I can see why this one would be particularly valuable to recruitment of OUR muslims living HERE. If I lived here and were muslim, I'd be pissed at America. Hell, I AM pissed at america! We're supposed to be better than this. Is it really all just big talk, then? All a lie, after all? What a disappointment.

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  18. They have every right to build that Islamic center and in fact, I encourage it. By building this center, we are giving the terrorists a big "fuck you", and I love it.

    But the issue isn't the location. It's the bigoted Christianists. There are disputes all across America regarding construction of Mosques. Doesn't matter where it is, people are trying to prevent Muslims from building.

    It's shameful.

    This is America. We might have our beliefs. But in this Country, a belief of a majority cannot triumph a minority with a different belief. At least that's how our founding documents are structured.

    Tasteless? I don't see it. Practicing Muslims didn't commit those crimes on 9/11. Angry extremists who manipulated and brainwashed to interpret their holy book incorrectly committed those acts.

    Many Muslims died that day on 9/11. And the opponents have not acknowledged this.

    Hallow ground? Okay, move the bars and strip clubs away.

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  19. the conspiracy nut in me wonders if they are trying to get a rise out of us to justify further attacks.
    -----------
    Hey, it just occurred to me that if enough people think like that, the 'rise' will just happen anyhow, won't it? As in, a self-fulfilling prophecy?
    And even if they actually ARE trying to get a rise out of us, the point of giving it to them as desired, of proving that we're as low as they want to portray us as, is what again?

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  20. How many times do the right-wing pundits and even the law makers have to get caught lying about stuff for us to take what they say with a grain of salt.

    Every election time they trot out their hatred for/fear of Latinos, Muslims, gays, blacks etc.

    It's getting stupid. They obviously will say anything at all to get elected and can't tell the people their true agenda because they'll lose votes.

    How on Earth you can 'make' an old person parade around with a sign saying something as silly as, "Government keep your hands off our Medicare." as if it isn't a government program, I will never know.

    The ignorance is mind-boggling.

    Can we really expect anything better when it comes to race, religion, drugs or sexual orientation though?

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  21. They're building a mosque there to have a tribute to their military victory over us. Well-learned minds would know this.

    This ruckus aint about the Muslim religion just as much as it ain;t about civil rights.

    It's about not letting our attackers build a victory build on American soil where they killed so many American people+. It's about protecting our own citizens, it's about not causing more grief on our soil. It's about being smart.

    +Notice; the term American people enveloped every race, creed and belief here.

    To inject religion into the conversation only makes for a distraction; thusly causing dis-unity.

    Oh, yeah, Mr. Imam; what EXACTLY did you mean when you said the US is THE most Sharia Law compliant country in the world? Huh? Really.

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  22. Welcome back Hydra!!
    It is not a surprise that you would pop up again to spout the ultra right wing party line that you have latched onto. If someone cannot think for herself, she only needs to listen to the latest from Beck/Limbaugh/any other ultra right wing talking head.
    *N.B. I recognize that I am attacking "the messenger" here, but I just can't overlook this sudden return to our midst with a post like this one. My bad.

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  23. Brian; is the Qu'ran an evil book?

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  24. Yep, now we hear from our fear/hatred segment of society. How easily are they manipulated?

    My mom was like you MI, she hated 'all-things-drugs' too. Until I asked her, "Would you like your grand-daughter to go to prison if she was caught with a joint in her purse?"

    Suddenly my mom 'saw the light'! If I'd asked her the same question 20 years before, about me, she'd have said something like, "If you do drugs you deserve to go to jail!"

    I think if lawmakers were to tell the truth, if asked about their grand-children, they'd likely say, "I'll look after my grand-children, none of them will go to jail, but to Hell with these poor kids."

    Back to the mosque and 9/11, if you MI were to tell the truth about muslim 9/11 victims, I think that you'd be hard pressed to not say, "Well, their people did it to them, they made their bed, serves them right!", isn't that right?

    Your ignorance is actually astonishing, it's just hard to be continuously astonished at so many astonishingly ignorant people.

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  25. "They're building a mosque there to have a tribute to their military victory over us. Well-learned minds would know this."

    This is so wrong. Are the churches and synagogues dotted thoughout the country tributes to the military victory of the European Christians over the Native Indians?

    Right there you are going to have to agree with me and disagree with me at the same time.

    Or, I guess the third option. Completely ignore any effort to explain why it is YOU who are wrong, prefering to believe the hate-monger who crafted those words to encourage you to hate and fear Muslims in general by associating Islam with a military enemy of the USA.

    Be careful what you wish for MI, there are many people as willfuly ignorant as yourself and a lot of them are Muslims who WILL hate you back!

    In the end you'll hate each other because some fear-monger wanted you to hate each other and retaliatory hate-mongering will not 'equalize' anything.

    You can't fight fire with fire because water puts out fires, isn't that right?

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  26. Brian; is the Qu'ran an evil book?
    -------------------
    I am not nearly as familiar with the koran as I am the bible, however from what I've seen, it's the same exact poison. That's why their right-wingers can FIND whatever justification they're looking for for their violence within its pages. Too unclear, and ya hafta believe ALL of it, just like our homegrown poison. Now, as with the bible, there are a lot of people that believe in SOME of it, who aren't evil at all, just trying to follow their traditions, and for those people, I feel terrible. I'd say that most of our muslims fall into this latter category. I wish most of our christians did. But lately the crazies among the christians seem to dominate the religion, if not by their numbers then by their shrillness.

    So my answer would be, yes, of course, and in a similar manner to the bible, the koran is evil. Any book that purports to tell people how to live their lives and is flawed and inconsistant and is so dated as regards morality, and so fosters the separation of man from man, is a negative and not a positive to society.

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  27. Welcome back MI...

    We've been getting bored without you. Too many sane people here.

    Nice to see your hate machine is well-oiled today, christian. I love your demonstration of brotherly love. Too funny.

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  28. MI, how hard is this to understand. We're the 'good guys,' right? We're the free country, right? What do the terrorists want for us? They want to see that freedon GO AWAY. So people like YOU, the kneejerk scardeycats, want to OBLIGE THEM. You'd give them a VICTORY here, due to your silly paranoia. Stop listening to crazies and morons on tv and the radio. They're only giving you the crazy moron version of reality, and if that's all you know, then reality might look sensible to YOU, but in the real world you are totally and utterly WRONG. Stop listining to who they tell you to listen to! They, your friends on tv and radio, have an AGENDA. And you're not seeing it, so you're playing right into their hands.

    You embarass me. It's sad that some americans are like you are.

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  29. Okay, I just listened to Imam Rauf talking about how the US is actually compliant to Sharia law.

    Like I expected, it was a GOOD talk, not a bad one as you seem bent on coloring it, MI.

    He says, and I quote "All Sharia law is, is the right to life, the right to freedom of religion, the right to family, the right to property, and the right to 'mental wellbeing...'

    He's saying that the radical muslims are misinterpreting sharia law, when it's basically a lot like the constitution we have here. And if that's what sharia law says, then I agree with him.

    MI, what the fuck's your problem?

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  30. To inject religion into the conversation only makes for a distraction; thusly causing dis-unity.
    -----------
    I so agree. Wish your side would stop it.

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  31. Some muslims interpret sharia law as brutal repression of human rights.

    But, in the past many christians have interpreted the bible in the same way.

    So, I'd say it's a wash. Obviously one can interpret the bible in a peaceful way, and I'd wager the same is true with sharia. The interpretation is in the hearts and minds of the interpreter. People see what they want to see in the bible, and in the koran. What's the big deal here? Seems totally obvious to me.

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  32. MI, you might get the impression from our reaction to you, mine in particular, that we don't want you here.

    Quite the opposite. The conversation is much more interesting when christians participate, even if it leads to argument.

    So not only do I hope that you continue to visit, I'd even go so far as to tell you that I wish you'd tell your christian friends to come here and rail against the godless heathens, too. It'd be fun.

    So hang in there, don't get discouraged. We like you even when we hate you. :-)

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  33. They're building a mosque there to have a tribute to their military victory over us. Well-learned minds would know this.
    ---------------
    This is pure Glen Beck.

    When you watch him, do you realize just how batshit crazy he is? No? He belongs in a home. Are you not getting that?

    It's NOT on ground zero, and it's mostly a community center. Basketball courts. Shit like that. Plus, there's already a mosque four blocks away from G.Z., but you're saying two is too close. So what's the limit? Three blocks? Oh yeah, the landing gear hit that building, so it's sacred. Huh? What? If this was a CHURCH that wanted to build there, nobody'd be talking about sacred ground, now would they?

    This country is founded on diversity. That doesn't mean 'all different kinds of christians' you know... we can't have a christian government like you'd like to see, because it'd be unfair to all those nonchristians, and THEY'RE EQUAL TO YOU. Get over yourselves and reach out, too. Start acting like christians are supposed to. Start loving others, for once. Without demanding that they change to match you. That part is pure pride on your parts.

    If I were a moderate muslim today, in this country, seeing how much all of america hates me now just for the fact that I'm a muslim, I'd want to build an outreach center, too. It's very necessary. Over 50 percent of america distrusts muslims now, and hey, guess what, over 50 percent of americans also don't know any muslims personally. Interesting. So of course they'd want to build an outreach center where 'reg'lar folk' can meet muslims, interact with them, and learn that they're NOT SATANIC, etc. Learn that Glen Beck is a dipshit, and they're actually very nice people.

    So they're reaching out, and we're biting their hand. Nice of us.

    Just grow up and stop the hatred. It's so childish.

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  34. (Oh, and MI, when I said that you can bring your christian friends here, I was talking about actual other people, not your alternate personalities...)

    (Sorry, couldn't resist)

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  35. As an aside, wouldn't Glen Beck look great in an SS uniform? He'd carry it so well...

    No seriously, I often imagine him in one. It's a natural.

    I have trouble believing sometimes, that he's actually popular with actual adult humans, and it's not because he's so funny. It boggles the mind that people take him seriously.

    Hey, didja all see the recent clip of the ad for his rally tomorrow where he actually says that God wants you to buy gold? Wow...

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  36. "Hallow ground? Okay, move the bars and strip clubs away."

    Man that was well put Botts.

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  37. Ryan asked,

    "...is the Qu'ran an evil book?"

    Ask Salman Rushdie?

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  38. Brian said,

    "...As an aside, wouldn't Glen Beck look great in an SS uniform? He'd carry it so well..."

    No, Beck is waaay too pudgy to look good in an SS uniform. SS trops look best when they're lean and skeletal, preferably with scars on their faces, or an eye patch...

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  39. Yeah, but there had to be some of them that were just morons... The Colonel Klinks of the SS if you will...

    His complexion is so white it looks powdered. And the pudginess provides just the right degree of corpulence for that 'I get off on torturing people' look.

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  40. It's NOT on ground zero, and it's mostly a community center. Basketball courts. Shit like that. Plus, there's already a mosque four blocks away from G.Z., but you're saying two is too close. So what's the limit? Three blocks? Oh yeah, the landing gear hit that building, so it's sacred. Huh? What? If this was a CHURCH that wanted to build there, nobody'd be talking about sacred ground, now would they?

    This country is founded on diversity. That doesn't mean 'all different kinds of christians' you know... we can't have a christian government like you'd like to see, because it'd be unfair to all those nonchristians, and THEY'RE EQUAL TO YOU. Get over yourselves and reach out, too. Start acting like christians are supposed to. Start loving others, for once. Without demanding that they change to match you. That part is pure pride on your parts.
    ----------------------------------

    First of all, let me make it clear to you Brian why most sane people would not reject the concept of a Church being built near ground zero, Christianity is not the motive behind the 911 attacks…. ISLAM is… The driving force of Islam is to destroy Christianity along with it’s followers. They will kill who ever will not convert to Islam. Can you count the Christian churches that are allowed to practice their religion in Muslim nations?The peace loving Islamist as you portray them are the bait to suck you in. All Islamist know that before their redeemer or messissah can return there must be a great persecution upon them ,so what do they do to motivate his coming? They start wars, run planes into buildings, wear bomb vest to kill innocent people, they cause friction and despair where ever they can.

    They do have a mosque four blocks away so why build another one so close to the one they have now? What is their true intention? What does this say to the rest of the world?
    Come on Brian and pboy ,you are smart lads, surly you guys can figure this one out.

    This country is not and was not founded on diversity. It was founded on the principles of Christianity… By Christian people who longed for religious freedom… People who were being persecuted for their faith because they would not adhere to the teachings of the Catholic church. Now you want us to reach out and embrace Islam while their motive is as was the catholics…. convert or die.
    No Thank you.

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  41. Mike said First of all, let me make it clear to you Brian why most sane people would not reject the concept of a Church being built near ground zero, Christianity is not the motive behind the 911 attacks…. ISLAM is…

    That's a correct statement, but so is this one...

    First of all, let me make it clear to you Brian why most sane people would reject the concept of a Church being built near ground zero, religion was the motive behind the 911 attacks…

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  42. The Qur'an is not evil.

    It says, "...the..."

    That's not evil, you guys are just bigots.

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  43. First of all, let me make it clear to you Brian why most sane people would reject the concept of a Church being built near ground zero, religion was the motive behind the 911 attacks…
    -----------
    I meant, OBVIOUSLY, that if situations were reversed and christians had attacked us, and the landing gear of the plane had hit that building... since we're mostly christians here, we'd have understood that it was just a bunch of radicals, and we wouldn't have had a problem with the building of a church.

    So you spent all that energy answering something I hadn't said.

    How's it feel to just hate that which you do not know? I can't even imagine doing that shit...

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  44. Can you count the Christian churches that are allowed to practice their religion in Muslim nations?
    --------------
    You guys LOVE this one, dontcha?

    Doesn't it stop you that only an idiot would make the comparison?

    I mean, we're NOT a muslim nation, nor are we a christian one for that matter. You people love to compare us to oppressive states, but the reason they're oppressive is that they're not TOLERANT of all RELIGIONS! We're NOT saudi arabia, and you dolts want us to be like them and not be tolerant?

    What idiocy.

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  45. In other words Observant, that whole like of reasoning can be boiled down to 'the other countries are evil, so why should we be good?

    (Forgetting of course that this is the frigging united states of america, you unpatriotic people you)

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  46. This country is not and was not founded on diversity. It was founded on the principles of Christianity… By Christian people who longed for religious freedom… People who were being persecuted for their faith because they would not adhere to the teachings of the Catholic church.
    -------------
    Wrong church, mike. Church of England.

    Boy, how can anyone take you guys seriously? You don't even know the most basic shit...

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  47. I'm still chuckling over the fact that you'd prefer that this were not a free country, Mike. The truth comes out at last.

    Yeah, let's be just like saudi arabia. It's only fair. They're nasty, so let's be too...

    Wow. How frigging blind do you have to be to think like that, Mike? I ask you, how myopically blind does a man have to be to want to forget that this is a free country, and pine for the idea of restricting other's religions like 'an arab country?' To think that that's 'only fair?'

    I'm stunned. No wonder this place is in the shitter. You people vote.

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  48. That asshole that killed Dr. Tiller for instance. A christian terrorist.

    I find it offensive that there are churches in that area, you know... And if they wanted to build a new one nearby, I'd say hell, no!

    Not really, but that's the logic the silly christians are using on this mosque debate. That, and that we need to be a more oppressive society like the arab countries are... lol.

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  49. Oh and BTW, I'd heard that one before, on Fox Pseudonews. The one about how we should be more like the arab countries. How they wouldn't allow a church to be built, etc...

    The guy that thought of that one needs to have the living crap kicked out of him by a soldier. Because he's pissing right on what we're fighting for.

    (Or at least what we're *supposed* to be fighting for...)

    Our free society.

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  50. Now you want us to reach out and embrace Islam while their motive is as was the catholics…. convert or die.
    ---------------
    Sorry, but there is just so much in your last post, I can't stop answering it...

    This paragraph... you're conflating the terrorists, alqaida, a few radicals, with the entire religion here. This is a basic error in judgement on your part, sir. All islam is NOT radical, nor is all of christianity, although it seems like it lately. You're hating millions of innocent people that have done you no harm and wish you no wrong. You sir, have become the hater in this equation. You've become what you hate. You're just like them now. like the terrorists. Not particular about who you're hating. I mean, they all look alike, right mike? Hate 'em all and let allah sort 'em out, eh?

    ReplyDelete
  51. All Islamist know that before their redeemer or messissah can return there must be a great persecution upon them ,so what do they do to motivate his coming? They start wars...
    ------------------
    Replace 'Islamist' with 'fundamentalist christian' and it still is a valid sentence! Who knew?

    How rapturous!

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  52. This country is not and was not founded on diversity.
    -----------
    (sigh)

    So I guess the constitution actually reads 'all *christian* men are created equal...'

    Mike, you are actually unamerican, aren't you?

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  53. This country is not and was not founded on diversity. It was founded on the principles of Christianity… By Christian people who longed for religious freedom… People who were being persecuted for their faith because they would not adhere to the teachings of the Catholic church. Now you want us to reach out and embrace Islam while their motive is as was the catholics….
    ---------------------------
    Not trying to advertise SteB but my only answer to the above comes from a notable historical figure...
    http://waywardskeptics.blogspot.com/2010/08/voices-of-reason.html

    ReplyDelete
  54. If the United States was founded on Christian principles, why isn't that mentioned in the Constitution?

    You think they just forgot?

    And why the insistence of separation of church and state? Without that, the state might promote some variation of Christianity or even some other religion, which many people don't subscribe to.

    Gee Mike, do you really expect us to be surprised by you demonizing Muslims?

    You think nothing of demonizing atheists and associating people who simply don't believe that there are any gods with Hitler and Stalin.

    As Brian noted, some Christians are AS BAD as some Muslims when it comes to killing in the name of their GOD.

    Do you honestly want to be a hate filled bigot by claiming that all Muslims are hate filled bigots?

    Did you know that one of their Prophets is Isa? That's Jesus to you! Guess they can't be all bad in your books, right? Better than atheists?(heh)

    ReplyDelete
  55. That's a great letter, pliny. I'd already visited your blog and had read it, albeit without comment. That paragraph about how tolerance is no longer necessary because that would be one group putting itself over another and 'tolerating' it, about how that's not what we're even about... well, I think most christians would be surprised to hear that. They always talk of tolerance, although they rarely even do that, but it's interesting to find out that George Washington himself declared that attitude, that one needs to 'tolerate' another person or group, unamerican.

    ReplyDelete
  56. Better than atheists?(heh)
    -------------
    Did you know that the only 'belief' that would make a person harder to elect than Islam, is atheism?

    That's right, as bad as all the christians say the muslims are, they still think we're worse...

    Rather dopey of them, if you ask me.

    ReplyDelete
  57. I've got the Jefferson bible around here somewhere. It used to piss me off something fierce when I was a fundamentalist, as it should Mike and MI.

    Jefferson, though a hypocrite, was about as close to a secular humanist (no offense to old fat ass Franklin) as you could get.

    This country was NOT founded on Christian principles exclusively. That's as ludicrous as saying an individual church is or was based off Christian principles exclusively, but of course just the jingoistic hogwash version of it.

    ReplyDelete
  58. To almost all,

    Just an aside, and not to blow smoke up your asses, but it's a privilege to be able to read your thoughts on most given matters at hand.

    I swear, even when we rehash the same stuff, there's a slightly new angle that comes out of it.

    For this I thank you... except pboy. To him I give a virtual noogie.

    ReplyDelete
  59. It's okay Harry, Jefferson is one of the historical figures that they're taking out of the texas history books. I think he's being replaced by Phyllis Schlafley or someone...

    Maybe Ayn Rand. Not sure.

    ReplyDelete
  60. When your whole view of reality is based in belief rather than observation of reality it becomes easy to change history books with no conscience pangs... after all, reality IS what you BELIEVE it to be, in their minds. They're entitled to their own beliefs and they know it, but since they can't tell a fact from a belief, they feel entitled to their own set of those, too.

    ReplyDelete
  61. I've got the Jefferson bible around here somewhere. It used to piss me off something fierce when I was a fundamentalist, as it should Mike and MI.
    --------------------
    I'm so glad that you came to your senses, Harry.

    It strikes me that those who are pissed off at reality are those who love their fantasy better.

    Ya know, I hear the christians trying to liken obama or liberals or progressives as socialists (gasp) and then of course, nazis. And of course, it's so against the rules for sane people to make nazi comparisons... no liberal treads there, or if they do, they pay the price for their folly... but the conservatives can cry 'nazi' all they want to, and they are not marginalized for it as we would be... and here's the rub:

    They're the ones ACTING like nazis! Ever since 9-11 and bush, but more and more... The disinformation, the propaganda, the erosion of our freedom, the TORTURE, (!!!) the prejudice and demonization of minorities, the paranoia, the hatred, the sheer smallmindedness and lack of empathy for their fellow humans, the sheer evil, masquerading as the highest good...

    Mostly, the lies. The huge fucking tapestry of lies.

    But I can't say it, can I? Not and be taken seriously by ANYONE.

    But they can say it of me, and those like them, will believe.

    How is this fair in any way, when we're exhorted to 'always, remember; never forget?'

    I didn't live through it, but I 'remember.' I know a little bit of actual, non-maed-up history... I can see the pattern. Sure, it likely won't go that far. But it's pretty much the same beginning.

    I guess when you know what you already are, the best thing to do is to call the other guy that first, huh?

    And it works, too.

    Sad.

    ReplyDelete
  62. The history changing thing is interesting. How long were the fledgling Christian churches around honing their versions of what happened, what Jesus 'said' etc. before they had enough material to make a 'compleat collected works of how Christianity works'??

    Modern Fundamental American Christians are quite happy to do the same thing with ANY history.

    Want the country to be 'holy' with 'holy founding fathers'? No problem, over time 'lose' any inconvenient facts about the people who wrote the Constitution.

    Were the Founding Fathers raging religionists making a new Promised Land for a new Chosen People, through GOD HIMSELF???

    Sure they were if you want to believe that's what they were, right?

    ReplyDelete
  63. Here's two jokes by Emo Phillips. Some of you may have seen them before, because I got them from the old DD blog meself...

    Anyhow, I dedicate the first one to you, Mike. (Observant Mike) :-)

    ********

    I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said "Stop! don't do it!" "Why shouldn't I?" he said. I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!" He said, "Like what?" I said, "Well...are you religious or atheist?" He said, "Religious." I said, "Me too! Are you christian or buddhist?" He said, "Christian." I said, "Me too! Are you catholic or protestant?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me too! Are you episcopalian or baptist?" He said, "Baptist!" I said,"Wow! Me too! Are you baptist church of god or baptist church of the lord?" He said, "Baptist church of god!" I said, "Me too! Are you original baptist church of god, or are you reformed baptist church of god?" He said,"Reformed Baptist church of god!" I said, "Me too! Are you reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1879, or reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1915?" He said, "Reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1915!" I said, "Die, heretic scum", and pushed him off. -- Emo Phillips

    When I was a kid, I used to pray every night for a new bycycle. Then I realized the Lord doesn't work that way. So, I stole one and asked him for forgiveness.
    -Emo Phillips


    Hey Mike, Emo agrees, baptist is a type of protestant. You'd better set him straight and lay some biblical truth on his sorry ass.

    Oh that's right, you don't have your own bible, do you? Just the catholic version of events that you made your own. I guess you all liked how great it turned out for them or something.

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  64. Okay, I'm bored so here's a serious question for Observant:

    Mike, if you were to ever have any doubts about your faith (I know, no way, but 'just if') would you try to seek divine assistance, pray them away as it were? Talk to your fellow parishoners and believers? I mean, I know that's what you're *supposed* to do.

    Or would you consider looking into them yourself to see if there is any merit to them? Look at what everyone is saying, not just what your side is, etc.? Consider ALL the evidence, as it were?

    Which do you think you'd do, *if* that were to happen? If you were troubled by a genuine doubt about your faith?

    Just curious.

    Can you even imagine doubting? Did you ever?

    I get upset with you sometimes, but you do fascinate me, I have to admit.

    ReplyDelete
  65. You see it too then, pboy. It's real, isn't it? That's how they think. That's how they've always thought. Veracity is entirely optional; emotional impact is all that counts.

    ReplyDelete
  66. You inspired me to revisit Emo Phillips a bit Bri.

    Emo.

    The last joke is what has the most salience to our ongoing discussion about religion etc.

    ReplyDelete
  67. Great article on the Mosque that isn't one, in a RI paper no less!

    (I live in RI)

    Worth reading, especially for observant and MI...

    ReplyDelete
  68. Brian said,

    "...[Conservative Christians] are the ones ACTING like nazis! Ever since 9-11 and bush, but more and more... The disinformation, the propaganda, the erosion of our freedom, the TORTURE, (!!!) the prejudice and demonization of minorities, the paranoia, the hatred, the sheer smallmindedness and lack of empathy for their fellow humans, the sheer evil, masquerading as the highest good..."

    I'll bet that was the aim of al Qaida all along: to get the radical Chriastians so pissed off that they'd start some ill-considered wars.

    What are the observable results so far?

    Wider divisions in the general American population.

    More radicalized conservative Christians.

    Increased paranoia of Muslims

    Increased recruitment for the al Qaida cause.

    It's a win-win-win-win for the jihadists...

    ReplyDelete
  69. Ian asked,

    "... How long were the fledgling Christian churches around honing their versions of what happened, what Jesus 'said' etc. before they had enough material to make a 'compleat collected works of how Christianity works'??"

    Look at this.

    ReplyDelete
  70. Another look at the New Testament which will never be looked at by Christians, Ed. They don't want to hear ANYTHING which might cast doubt on their belief which is couched in terms of 'having hope'.

    And who knows, maybe the crazy Christians are the only reason that the crazy Muslims aren't 'setting up shop' in America, it's not for their lack of trying.

    Seems to me that government HAS given in to the idea that religion is a powerful control agent, and in the end, perhaps one religion is as good as an other to power hungry people who seek to get elected.

    Look what's happening in Europe.

    Still, this wouldn't be enough for me to go around pretending that there are supernatural forces at work.

    The forces involved are all too natural.

    ReplyDelete
  71. Preaching to the choir, I know, Peeb...

    ReplyDelete
  72. link

    Interesting article by a christian about Beck's calling Obama a 'Liberation Theology' believer.

    Botts, I think you'll like it. Observant and MI, not so much.

    ReplyDelete
  73. Again, this in no way impacts their legal right to build. But, as if often the case, I agree with Hitchens.

    Hitchens on Imam Abdul Rauf

    ReplyDelete
  74. Observant, I'll have to think a little clearly and not be reactionay to your ridiculous posts, but I will let you read the following from the Qur'an. You see Observant, you don't know anything about Islam accept what others tell you. You've done zero investigating on your part. You are an ideologue. A falso God worshipper. Enjoy the following quotes from the "their Scripture".

    “The [Muslim] believers, the Jews, the Christians, and the Sabians – all those who believe in God and the Last Day and do good – will have their rewards with their Lord. No fear for them, nor will they grieve”; 2:62 “Some of the People of the Book believe in God, in what has been sent down to you and in what was sent down to them: humbling themselves before God, they would never sell God’s revelation for a small price. These people will have their rewards with their Lord: God is swift in reckoning”; 3:199 “You [Prophet] are sure to find that the most hostile to the believers are the Jews and those who associate other deities with God*; you are sure to find that the closest in affection towards the believers are those who say, ‘We are Christians,’ for there are among them people devoted to learning and ascetics. These people are not given to arrogance, and when they listen to what has been sent down to the Messenger, you will see their eyes overflowing with tears because they recognize the truth [in it]. They say, ‘Our Lord, we believe, so count us amongst the witnesses. Why should we not believe in God and in the truth that has come down to us when we long for our Lord to include us in the company of the righteous?’ For saying this, God has rewarded them with Gardens graced with flowing streams, and there they will stay: that is the reward of those who do good.” 5:82-85

    The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah ... and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus (42:13 AYA)

    But say, "We (Muslims) believe in the Revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you (Jews & Christians); our Allah and your Allah is One" (29:46 AYA).

    "ALLAH is HE besides Whom there is none worthy of worship, the Living, the Self-Subsisting and All-Sustaining. HE has sent down to thee the Book containing the truth and fulfilling that which precedes it; and HE has sent down the Torah (Law of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guidance to the people; and HE has sent down the Discrimination (judgement between right and wrong)."—Qur'an, Surah 3:3-4

    "Abraham was indeed a paragon of virtue, obedient to ALLAH, ever inclined to HIM, and he was not of those who set up equals with ALLAH; Ever grateful for HIS favours: HE chose him and guided him to a straight path. And WE bestowed on him good in this world, and in the Hereafter he will surely be among the righteous. And now WE have sent revelation to thee, enjoining, 'Follow the way of Abraham who was ever inclined to ALLAH and was not of those who set up equals to HIM.'"—Qur'an, Surah 16:121-124

    ReplyDelete
  75. Ah Botts, you didn't post Sura 2 verse 96...

    Like the bible, it says anything and everything anyone could want or need! Yay Scripture!!!

    ReplyDelete
  76. Ryan,

    My same argument applies. The totality of their scripture preaches tolerance and loving thy neighbor.

    As most of all scriptures do.

    I believe in Jesus Christ as my savior, but I also believe that God has inspired many works and continues to this day.

    A part of me believes that all of the scriptures from various faiths were meant to be here. But power hungry individuals and institutions taught people to divide through scripture instead of uniting through scripture as I believe it was intended.

    And I won't change my view on that. I know too many Muslims. Too many I consider family. They are so similar to a non-batshit crazy Christian. I've been in communities around the world where Muslims and Christians are neighbors in every sense of the word. And there is a mutual respect for eachs scripture and in most cases both have knowledge of each as well.

    God(Allah) is God(Allah)

    ReplyDelete
  77. Botts The totality of their scripture preaches tolerance and loving thy neighbor.

    You mean the "majority" (and I don't know if that's true), becasue the "totality" includes Sura 2:96 and 3:118 and many others that inspire violence and hate today.

    ReplyDelete
  78. Ryan,

    I understand where you're coming from. If you find the Bible evil, I'm quite positive that you will find the Qu'ran evil as well. A "Christian" is not classified as an unbeliever. That's the point I'm making here to Observant. They are called to respect and honor Christians as we are both called to worship the God of Abraham.

    The opponents of the Mosque are mainly Christians. But they fail to recognize the numerous domestic terrorist acts done by Christian sects for hundreds of years. And their extreme motivations are no different from the motivations of the extremists of Islam.

    And I'm sure they all agree with Mr. Beck and his idiotic speech on Liberation Theology over the weekend. Jesus taught Liberation Theology. But they follow man and divide themselves into groups instead of actually trying to understand what is actually taught.

    I know where you stand.

    ReplyDelete
  79. It is a battle of wills between guys such as yourself who see religion as a uniting force and those who twist it to unite those like themselves against others.

    I don't believe that there is Absolute Morality Botts, but if you do, you are playing into these people's hands because that notion can so easily be switched towards hatred.

    Absolute Morality is exactly equal to, "You are either with us or against us."

    Absolute Morality leads, inexorably to. "God said no witches.", "God said no gays.", "God said no unbelievers.", etc.

    The list of crimes against GOD is, no doubt, endless, and simply not believing that there ARE such things or such a thing as GODS/a GOD, is an offence to these hatemongers, word-twisters, mind poisoners, soul poisoners(to put it in your terms).

    They are your enemy and they laugh at you because you are instructed to love them, and, since you cannot, you are 'the pot' calling 'the kettle' black.

    Isn't that right?

    ReplyDelete
  80. And this same reasoning lends itself to politics.

    You've no doubt read 1984 and Animal Farm where the idea of brothers helping brothers is subverted by the leaders whose goal is altered fairly quickly from brothers helping brothers to 'the bosses against the workers/serfs/slaves'.

    Instead of government by the people for the people, it becomes government by the powerful over the powerless.

    Seems to me that this is a close approximation to unchecked capitalism, where the rich and powerful govern solely to maintain their wealth and power.

    Example. How close were American hearts and minds with Joseph Stalin during the Second World War?

    "Why, we need to supply Uncle Joe with materiel to defeat the hated Nazis!"

    How quickly we can use doublethink to forget such horrid thoughts that we might have EVER been 'in bed with' Stalin?

    Faster than you can nuke a frozen burrito!

    ReplyDelete
  81. Pboy,

    I'm under the impression that one cannot truly understand God or what Jesus taught unless they attempt to empathize and literally put themselves in other peoples shoes.

    If we are told to find the way to unconditional love of our neighbor, one cannot achieve this without understanding his neighbor.

    Unconditional love cannot lead to hatred. And I do love my enemies whoever they may be. I love them and value them as not only neighbors but Brothers and Sisters.

    I judge only those who attempt to preach to the masses. This would be any preacher, minister, or priest. I attempt to understand the fruits they feed. Someone can confess to me with words that they are an unbeliever, but truly I do not know that to be true. Only God knows.

    Scripture shows us how to love and how to experience God and the Kingdom of Heaven now. At the same time, through our free will and decisions, we can experience and live in utter hell now too.

    I wouldn't go as far to say that there is an absolute morality. I believe morality is something we learn through environment and experience. However, I also believe that we are all born with the ability to show unconditional love or unconditional hatred. And our environment and experiences play a big part into that.

    The Teachings at least in my experience show me how to maintain my focus on learning to show my unconditional love in spite of my environment or experiences. It takes me away from group thought, peer pressure and the like. We are born with the ability to be any kind of way and our experiences and environment shape us if we let it.

    I believe Religions of all kinds have grown over time to be not only institutionalized, but have taken away a persons ability to reason with what's taught. Ultimately that person is accountable. As a witness, I do my best to point them out of that direction and moreso learn for themselves.

    ReplyDelete
  82. All very well but how Christian does Observant think you are?

    Hatemongers have hi-jacked Christianity and Islam for their own use.

    "If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face— forever."(1984)

    Now people are willing to let that happen thinking that they are trying to stop it.

    Or, people are willing to let that happen to others in the hopes of avoiding it happening to themselves.

    One simply gets people to believe that 'hated others' are the cause of their distress, ("Government keep your hands off our Medicare!") to control their actions.

    How can one love this 'they know not what they do' neighbour?

    How long have you tried to reason with Observant, Botts?

    There IS NO reasoning with him. He only listens to 'like-minded' Christians through his email contact list. You know, the shit-disturbing, abortion is evil, homosexuality is evil, atheism is evil, socialism is evil, Islam is evil etc. etc.

    ReplyDelete
  83. Botts said I understand where you're coming from. If you find the Bible evil, I'm quite positive that you will find the Qu'ran evil as well. A "Christian" is not classified as an unbeliever.

    That's all well and good for the Christians, but after the battle of the Trench, how do the Jews fair in the Qu'ran?

    ReplyDelete
  84. And Botts, I'm not sure if you realise that you are missing my points or even if you are deliberately missing my points.

    I sincerely believe that the reason the 'Free World' sided with the Communists during the Second World War, was because Nazism was a very evil version of Christianity willing to 'vanish' all traces of the Jews for their sins against humanity!(Jesus killers!)

    Versus that and the Japanese notion that their Emperor was a GOD, Uncle Joe Stalin, who may have been deified by the ignorant, would quite easily be undeified by his death.

    Basically atheistic communism was the LEAST of these two 'evils'.

    The USA has been creeping back towards a theistic 'destiny' ideal ever since, in the name of fighting communism.

    Of course totalitarianism is bad but to paint the notion of brotherly love and brothers helping brothers as evil socialism, to paint the very ideal of this as non-freedom and totalitarianism is evil, but that is exactly what Americans are taught to do in school and church.

    Sure, brotherly love and brothers helping brothers is a 'good idea' yet, if one is a member of Club Christian America!

    Not so much if you happen to be someone else!

    I'm saying that you acknowledging reality(was gonna say 'my reality') and couching it in terms of God* and Jesus* is missing my point almost entirely, even if you are essentially agreeing with me.

    *which, to me, are characters' names in stories.

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  85. Pboy said,

    I sincerely believe that the reason the 'Free World' sided with the Communists during the Second World War, was because Nazism was a very evil version of Christianity willing to 'vanish' all traces of the Jews for their sins against humanity!(Jesus killers!)
    -----------------------------
    Pboy, I can’t remember the name of the actress who played on SNL but to quote her, “Bitch please” lol

    Nazism was not remotely close to any version of Christianity. The KKK claim to be Christian as well but the fact is they are not. They are using religion as banner for their evil cause.
    You say that Hitler was a catholic and the driving force behind his hatred was to kill the Jews for killing Christ? Are you stupid or something? The Jews didn’t kill Christ… They hated Him alright, and yes they wanted him dead… But the fact is The Romans hung Him on a Roman cross… He died at the hands of the Romans of whom the Catholics originated from.
    I know , I know you say the Catholics wrote the Bible and Paul is buried their and Peter was their first pope… If you could understand the message of Christ then you would know that there is NO possible way that the Catholics could be connected to Christ because of their false teachings. Christ’s message to mankind was ye must be born again of the Spirit, but the Catholics teach still yet today that water Baptism washes away the original sin. These two messages are contrary to each other…

    All jokes aside, I met a young man the other day and he told me his name was Christian , so I asked him does that mean you are a Christian as well and he said yes…So I ask him what makes you think you are a Christian ,and he said, well, I went to a bible study once a long time ago. That’s it… he went to a bible study… just because he attended a bible study he now claims to be a Christian… really, Is that all there is to it? Gee, no wonder you all don’t know what a Christian is ,you have the same mind set as the young man…

    ReplyDelete
  86. Pboy said,

    I sincerely believe that the reason the 'Free World' sided with the Communists during the Second World War, was because Nazism was a very evil version of Christianity willing to 'vanish' all traces of the Jews for their sins against humanity!(Jesus killers!)
    -----------------------------
    Pboy, I can’t remember the name of the actress who played on SNL but to quote her, “Bitch please” lol

    Nazism was not remotely close to any version of Christianity. The KKK claim to be Christian as well but the fact is they are not. They are using religion as banner for their evil cause.
    You say that Hitler was a catholic and the driving force behind his hatred was to kill the Jews for killing Christ? Are you stupid or something? The Jews didn’t kill Christ… They hated Him alright, and yes they wanted him dead… But the fact is The Romans hung Him on a Roman cross… He died at the hands of the Romans of whom the Catholics originated from.
    I know , I know you say the Catholics wrote the Bible and Paul is buried their and Peter was their first pope… If you could understand the message of Christ then you would know that there is NO possible way that the Catholics could be connected to Christ because of their false teachings. Christ’s message to mankind was ye must be born again of the Spirit, but the Catholics teach still yet today that water Baptism washes away the original sin. These two messages are contrary to each other…

    All jokes aside, I met a young man the other day and he told me his name was Christian , so I asked him does that mean you are a Christian as well and he said yes…So I ask him what makes you think you are a Christian ,and he said, well, I went to a bible study once a long time ago. That’s it… he went to a bible study… just because he attended a bible study he now claims to be a Christian… really, Is that all there is to it? Gee, no wonder you all don’t know what a Christian is ,you have the same mind set as the young man…

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  87. Gee, no wonder you all don’t know what a Christian is ,you have the same mind set as the young man…
    ----------
    I know what a christian is. Just ask me. If you dare.

    ReplyDelete
  88. "Nazism was not remotely close to any version of Christianity. The KKK claim to be Christian as well but the fact is they are not."

    So Mike the Nazis, according to you, weren't Christian, the KKK isn't Christian and, apparently not even the Catholics measure up to your standard as a Christian.


    Unbelievable Mike, 'cos you seem to be able to paint Islam as what the Taliban and Al Queda do easily enough!!!

    Don't you find it funny how easily you can distinguish radicals and those who would pervert religion for their own use as 'not really' of that religion ONLY when it comes to your OWN religion.

    ReplyDelete
  89. Botts,
    You foolish boy… I guess this means you embrace the teachings of the agnostics, and the writings of the book of Mormons of latter day saints, and any other book or books you can find that mention “a god” regardless … Hey, what ever floats you boat…

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  90. In your little rant there you give away that the Absolute Morality that you claim to believe in is simply, "If you're not with us, you're against us."

    I find it incredible that you could happily claim that the United States of America is a Christian Nation when you will happily throw the majority of practicing Christians under the bus.

    Are you saying that the USA is a fake Christian Nation? You seem to want to be inclusive when that suits you and exclusive when you think that mode will serve you better.

    Have you never heard the term 'two faced'?

    Not a nice thing to be Mike.

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  91. Pboy said,

    Don't you find it funny how easily you can distinguish radicals and those who would pervert religion for their own use as 'not really' of that religion ONLY when it comes to your OWN religion.
    -------------------------

    No It’s not funny, it’s heart breaking… All these false religions giving people false hopes and they don’t even realize it. What I do find funny however is your ability to dismiss Christianity as if it were somebody playing a bad joke on the world…

    ReplyDelete
  92. Yeah Mike, if the US is a christian nation but only the baptists are 'real' christians, then you've just called yourself a liar.

    But hey, not a problem for a man that can hold two mutually exclusive beliefs in his mind at the same time and believe both of them without his head exploding, eh?

    ReplyDelete
  93. You make me laugh Mike. Perhaps you aren't like Catholics at all, but you know who you ARE like?

    The Taliban and Al Queda.

    Seems that you WANT Holy War as much as they do.

    I like the idea. I think all you Holy shit-disturbers ought to get together in the Middle East and have you're Holy War. Get a ticket. Get.

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  94. In your little rant there you give away that the Absolute Morality that you claim to believe in is simply, "If you're not with us, you're against us."

    I find it incredible that you could happily claim that the United States of America is a Christian Nation when you will happily throw the majority of practicing Christians under the bus.

    Are you saying that the USA is a fake Christian Nation? You seem to want to be inclusive when that suits you and exclusive when you think that mode will serve you better.

    Have you never heard the term 'two faced'?

    Not a nice thing to be Mike.
    -----------------------------------------------

    America is far from a Christian nation.
    I do believe however when this nation was established it was established on the principal of Christianity but that in itself does not make America a Christian nation now does it?

    Two faced ,not hardly …

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  95. Don't you find it funny how easily you can distinguish radicals and those who would pervert religion for their own use as 'not really' of that religion ONLY when it comes to your OWN religion.
    -------------------------

    No It’s not funny, it’s heart breaking…
    -------------
    MUAH HA HA HA HA!

    You just said that it's heart-breaking that you can't see that many people in other religions differ from each other and the 'norm' of that religion, that you can't see it, except in your own religion.

    You just admitted to selective blindness. And being heartbroken over the fact.

    Well done, sir. I never thought you had it in you.

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  96. The Taliban and Al Queda.

    Seems that you WANT Holy War as much as they do.

    I like the idea. I think all you Holy shit-disturbers ought to get together in the Middle East and have you're Holy War. Get a ticket. Get.
    ------------------------------------------

    Oh come on Pboy.
    How can you compare me with Al Queda.
    Al Queda wants the worlds population to be Moslem and they will kill to achieve their goal.
    I’m nothing like that at all. I believe in ever one having the right to make their own choice about religion as I have demonstrated here many times with the freewill debates.
    Further more I do not believe any of the Armageddon BS that is spued by your modernist Christianity cults.

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  97. "What I do find funny however is your ability to dismiss Christianity as if it were somebody playing a bad joke on the world…"

    It's Hilarious Mike! What fools you are!

    You wouldn't have any hope if it weren't for your belief that some crazy preacher went up against the local and world establishment and got hung out to dry for his trouble. Then, and this is where it gets a little confusing, in front of 500 totally biased people, his mortal body is seen rising up in the sky, presumable to zoom through billions of light-years of space to reach the unobservable 'Heaven' at the end of the Universe.(or so the story sort of goes)

    You are a laugh Mike, and a sick fuck for stirring the shit like a Talibani.

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  98. "Al Queda wants the worlds population to be Moslem and they will kill to achieve their goal.
    I’m nothing like that at all."

    You want the worlds population to be Christian and will kill to achieve your goal.
    You're EXACTLY like that at all.

    ReplyDelete
  99. I’d like to see all mankind come to know Jesus in the free pardon of sin, but I’m not trying to force it on anyone and you know it.
    When and were did you attend church pboy, and how old were you?

    ReplyDelete
  100. Oh come on Pboy.
    How can you compare me with Al Queda.
    -----------
    It's okay Mike. They can't see that they're like you, either.

    ReplyDelete
  101. It must be very hard for you to live with your self having all this hate filled up with in you pboy.
    Why don’t you give Jesus a try …he can remove all that hate and give you a heart of love.

    ReplyDelete
  102. I’d like to see all mankind come to know Jesus in the free pardon of sin,
    ------------
    Yeah, I was watching "Lockup" this weekend on MSNBC and this convicted murderer who 'found Jesus" in prison was bragging about how he was forgiven and how 'stealing a cracker is the same as murder in God's eyes' and a load of other horseshit, the gist of it all being that he felt a LOT BETTER about his crimes, a LOT LESS REGRET. (He thanks Jesus for that)
    He even said that if the family can't forgive him now, that's between God and them, their lack of forgiveness, as if it's their moral flaw that they can't forgive him!

    Your religion SUCKS, mike.

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  103. Pboy's not hate-filled, he's AWARE. And when one is AWARE, one can see how incredibly hateful YOU and other christians are. And this is VERY FRUSTRATING to any decent human being. This, you mistake as hate, because you're blinded to what you really are.

    ReplyDelete
  104. Brian said,

    I know what a christian is. Just ask me. If you dare.
    ------------------
    I dare. What is a true Christian Brian in your humble opinion?

    ReplyDelete
  105. Brian In the Psalms of David he wrote I hate every false way. I do also Brian ,I hate every false way, But I do not hate the individuals were misguided .

    ReplyDelete
  106. "It must be very hard for you to live with your self having all this hate filled up with in you pboy."

    I don't hate anyone Mike, I'm just saying how it is that YOU hate quite a bit though.

    You hate atheists as God haters.

    You hate women having the right to choose.

    You hate Muslims.

    There's likely a never ending list of people you could get around to hating in the name of your Absolute Morality/if-you're-not-with-us-you're-against-us paradigm.

    "Why don’t you give Jesus a try …"

    Is 'Jesus' a code name for a drug here?

    "..he can remove all that hate and give you a heart of love."

    You are a funny guy, you sick fuck.

    Jesus doesn't seem to be removing any hate at all from you guys, right? Right?

    Or does 'getting Jesus' just remove hatred for Christians?

    Seems okay to still despise Catholics though!

    HA HA HA!

    ReplyDelete
  107. I dare. What is a true Christian Brian in your humble opinion?
    -----------
    An addict.

    ReplyDelete
  108. Once again Mike, one might have thought that these people who founded the USA with a Constitution might have put it in there that they were founding the country on Christian principles if they were intending to do that!

    Don't you think so?

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  109. Brian In the Psalms of David he wrote I hate every false way. I do also Brian ,I hate every false way, But I do not hate the individuals were misguided .
    ------------
    In order to hate every false way, you have to be able to recognize the true way. And basically, there isn't one, not in the bible. The message is way too mixed. You yourself are a great example of how people just take out of it what they want to.

    I used to think a real christian was a decent person that wasn't hateful to anybody, loved everybody, and was open-minded and believed in social justice like Jesus did. Love thy neighbor. Feed the poor. Clothe the destitute. Turn the other cheek. Works, not words.

    Botts comes close. YOu are a million miles away from it.

    But I don't see botts as a 'real' christian anymore, no more than I do you. I see botts as a good person that happens to be a christian, and is good IN SPITE OF THAT. And likewise I see you as a more selfish and ego-centered type who thinks he knows it all. (Because of the ego thing of course)
    Not a bad guy, but a lot of shitty, narrow-minded beliefs that make you hard to like.

    ReplyDelete
  110. Oh, and I only say that very last part there, because believe it or not, I've always wanted to like you.

    You're too narrow-minded, and you're convinced that you're right all the time. NOt easy to be friends with, unless one is equally narrow of course.

    ReplyDelete
  111. "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence,[1] promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

    Flowery language to be sure, but not one mention of God, or Jesus!

    I think that it is hard for you to write us a comment without mention something about either of those or inspired writings ABOUT them, no?

    I'd imagine that the Constitution would be chock full of 'Jesus this' and 'God that', if that's what they'd intended, yes?

    It's not hard to 'fit' God or Jesus into the conversation, you know this.

    ReplyDelete
  112. I guess this is where Mike exits the conversation. When confronted with facts, Mike sees the 'Devil's work', and disappears back into the woodwork.

    Trouble with the facts is that they are calling Mike a LIAR.

    I find it hard to believe that Mike would agree with the 'founding fathers' version of Christianity, if they even did adhere to any version of it and I believe that the absence of any reference to it(Christianity) indicates this.

    I cannot imagine someone like Mike being present at the make up of the Constitution and NOT putting in something about God or Jesus, can you Mike?

    ReplyDelete
  113. Absolutely not, pboy. Agreed on all counts.

    It doesn't stand to reason that they'd be silent about it.

    Our founders were quite intentional in excluding god or jesus.

    'All men are created equal'

    Muslims excluded? I think not. Atheists left out? No way.

    In fact, that is the very core of our greatness as a country. What little we have left, that is.

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  114. It strikes me that in 1776 anyone who didn't believe in god called themslef a 'deist' or even just 'christian' (and went to church regularly!) rather than an 'atheist' since society in general was so much more primitive then (read 'less secular') that to admit atheism was like confessing to child molestation.

    Even if they believed in a god, they weren't 'christian' in the sense that mike likes to think of them. Not even close.

    Ya know pboy, it also strikes that even if this country never ever had had one single nonchristian immigrant, even if every single person in this country were a christian, all the different KINDS of christianity would still hate each other's asses. The religion needs an enemy. Distracts the sheep from how stupid it is.

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  115. I sometimes think that the founders created the separation of chiurch from state not to prevent discrimination against other religions, but to prevent any one CHRISTIAN sect coming to absolute power over all the others.

    Smart guys.

    ReplyDelete
  116. "When and were did you attend church pboy, and how old were you?"

    What?

    When and where did you attend mosque Mike, and how old were you?

    ReplyDelete
  117. Incidentally, are masons considered good christians? Because all the founders were masons, too, or most of them. Masonic designs on the dollar bill and in the nation's capital, the arrangement of monuments and buildings etc...

    I thought they were generally despised by christians. Maybe they were more tolerated then? Or is forgetting that they were masons part of the Christian New World Order?

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  118. Yea, but Brian, the truth in what Mike says is not in the odious facts, no.

    It's in the hope that he can give to other Christians, you see?

    If they listen to his bullshit claiming the world to be 'just so', then they can practice bullshitting to HIM so that he can get hope back from THEM.

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  119. Mike, if you're still 'listening' or whatever, I wonder if you are aware of something...

    Do you know that AlQaida is absolutely dead-set AGAINST us allowing muslims to build a mosque near ground zero? They believe that it's an Obama plot to 'regain the dignity of the US' and they absolutely hate the idea.

    Or, haven't you been paying attention to international news? I bet not...

    So, you're in good company, dude. Pretty funny, isn't it?

    So can you see now why you are a lot like AlQaida?

    Of course not. If you could, why, then you wouldn't be, now would you?

    ReplyDelete
  120. Mike said Nazism was not remotely close to any version of Christianity.

    Yeah, and tennis players are nothing like agnostics.

    What???

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  121. The parallel between the Nazis and the Catholic church around the time of the Crusades and the Inquisitions is obvious.

    They both had one 'infallible' leader.

    They both claimed to get their authority from GOD.(Gott mit uns etc.)

    They both were happy to blame the Jews for everything that was wrong with the World.

    They regarded everyone who was NOT them as savages.

    And so what if they weren't 'good', they were GODLY dammit!

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  122. Mike may say that, but reality says differently. At the minimum, Hitler USED christianity to help control his people, and couldn't have done what he did without it. More likely though, that he also believed in god himself and wasn't just faking it. There were Nazi Churches, for crying out loud!

    Mike, here's some interesting pictures

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  123. Did I mention their dreams of World domination?

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  124. I am always amused that the christian sects do not even get along with each other, never mind the rest of the world...

    Like, The Catholic Church spawned the protestants out of, well, protest of their repression and greed, but then protestant sects come over here to get away from the repression of OTHER protestant sects over there... the pilgrims come over here and establish a colony, but Roger Williams is not allowed his religious freedom so he protests THEM and comes to RI to found his baptist sect... and so on and so on.

    If it weren't for them having the rest of the world to hate, they'd all just kill themselves off eventually.

    ReplyDelete
  125. "At the minimum, Hitler USED christianity to help control his people.."

    You're giving Mike an 'out' here as if every Christian politician DOESN'T use their Christianity to control or console their public.

    As if every Christian politician(true believer or not) doesn't couch his/her policies in terms of their God-given land and their God-given destiny and their God-given right to despise any non-Christians(see Newt Gingrich).

    As if any Christian wouldn't want to lock up the gays, the socialists and the communists given half the chance!

    Let's see, Hitler was anti-Jew, anti-Gay, anti-atheist, anti-socialist, anti-communist, anti-multi-racial, pro-big business, pro-"greater destiny".

    Sounds just like you guys Mike, I'm afraid.

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  126. I'm kinda sorry that eric doesn't come here anymore because sometimes it's very interesting to argue with him, but he made the mistake of lying to me one too many time in his supercilious manner. I can't abide pathological liars that pretend they're superior to everyone else. So I lost my temper with him. No regrets.

    I am happy that observant still posts here, and even MI.

    However, I do wonder sometimes why Mike still comes here, happy as I am that he does. What does HE get out of it, I wonder? I mean, he comes here, drops in a few highly biased factually incorrect opinions, gets slaughtered, and fades out without adressing any of our questions, only to come back and do it all over again.

    I was thinking that it's like a doubt game or something. As in, he comes here, aquires doubts, albeit slight ones, and then he has something to 'pray away' on sunday.

    Or maybe to him we're like a zoo. All the atheists lines up in their cages for him to look at. A curiousity or something.

    I've given up on the idea that he comes here trying to save us. He's just not that into helping others.

    Any guesses? I'm a bit stymied. Maybe he feels a kinship to us after all this time? I mean, I guess I do too, so that could be it.

    MI on the other hand, seems to do it out of masochism.

    ReplyDelete
  127. I think that wherever else Mike goes, they're all in agreement with him and he just wants to know the lies that we are telling each other.

    You know, the lie that the Founding Fathers weren't pushing a religious agenda such as Christian principles.

    The lie that Christian bigotry and Islamic bigotry are the same thing.

    Those kinds of things.

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  128. Hey, has anyone listened to Glenn Beck trying to explain how Obama's 'liberation theology' isn't 'real christianity?'

    Because you see, it's all concerned with the poor and oppressed, and trying to liberate them from their oppression. Equality and social justice. Right action. You know, 'JUST LIKE THAT JESUS ASSHOLE.'

    Beck's objection, the reason he says that it's NOT real christianity, is that apparently real christianity IS NOT AT ALL ABOUT ANY OF THAT, but is all about 'personal salvation.'

    In other words, real christianity is 'all about me, and nothing about you.' So shut up.

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  129. I think that wherever else Mike goes, they're all in agreement with him and he just wants to know the lies that we are telling each other.
    ------------
    Yeah.

    So kinda like the 'zoo' analogy then.

    Growl.

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  130. You're giving Mike an 'out' here as if every Christian politician DOESN'T use their Christianity to control or console their public.
    ----------
    Well, I'm 'giving him an 'out'' only in the sense that if he takes it, he's admitting that his religion makes a very convenient tool for control of the masses, one that has been used over and over again throughout its history, and that Hitler couldn't have 'done it' without it.

    ReplyDelete
  131. There's certainly an element of 'you think you're so smart' in his commentry.

    ReplyDelete
  132. Brian said "wtf?"

    I'm just pointing out to Mike that since NAZIism was a political and economic momement and Christianity is a religion, they aren't mutually exclusive.

    Most Germans were christians before 1936 and after 1945. Obviously, most Germans were christians during 1936-1945 too.

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  133. But Mike will grab at any 'out' he's given, and not notice such stuff as 'consequences'.

    He believes that God made it all and it was good.

    He gave us a 'gift' of freewill, presumabley 'good'.

    He believes that Adam and Eve made bad choices using their free will which is 'bad'.

    He believes that Jesus came to Earth to sacrifice himself as an 'out' for us and needed to be seen to rise into the sky after coming back from the dead to give him hope that there's an afterlife and that he will follow Jesus to Heaven after he dies.

    He believes this nonsense with all his 'heart' and thinks that 'believing' is the key thing to do for it to happen.

    He believes that we are either without hope or praying to 'false gods'.

    Basically he is believing that life is so precious(his life) that he would be without hope if he thought it wasn't going to last forever!

    Time spent on Earth among the physically living is just a test run really, like the bottom of the ladder in a hierarchy of 'being'.

    But he's happy in his little fantasy world, gloating that, "The Scripture says..", this or that to make his point that he's all right Jack, and that you're either with him or against him.

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  134. Brian; I'm afraid those "interesting pictures" won't phase Mike as he doesn't even think Catholics are real christians.

    PS: what was the lie you caught Eric in? I don't remember, I just remember him making several strange posts about his physical prowess right before he left.

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  135. PS: what was the lie you caught Eric in? I don't remember, I just remember him making several strange posts about his physical prowess right before he left.
    -------------
    Oh, you don't actually 'catch' eric in a lie. You observe the patterns of his apologetics over time and realize by the preponderence of evidence that all of what he says, is a lie. A very convoluted and hard to see lie. And he's so cocky about it all, as if we're the morons and he's a visionary or something. After a while I just couldn't take it anymore, and got progressively cockier and more sarcastic with him till he split. Apparently for good.

    ReplyDelete
  136. Yeah, the physical prowess posts were very revealing of a person with a high opinion of himself.

    He feeds his ego well. Keeps it nice and fat.

    ReplyDelete
  137. Just digested some new information about people who are born with one to many chromosomes depending on which extra one they received x or y can determine the sexual outcome of a persons sexual preference… And all this time I thought it was a choice… Now I find myself perplexed about the Biblical subject of homosexuality… Could it be pertaining to two normal males and or females who were born straight and decided to change horses for ??? But why? What reason would one have to be gay if they were born straight. I mean born with the right number or chromosomes.
    Any thoughts on the subject anyone?

    I’ll get back to you later tonight boy on the subject of America and it’s Christian principals.

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  138. And all this time I thought it was a choice… Now I find myself perplexed about the Biblical subject of homosexuality… Could it be pertaining to two normal males and or females who were born straight and decided to change horses for ??? But why? What reason would one have to be gay if they were born straight. I mean born with the right number or chromosomes.
    Any thoughts on the subject anyone?
    --------------
    I hadn't heard of this particular line of research. I had thought that one could only have an extra Y chromosome. Don't know about an extra 'X."

    If you are willing to question that long-held belief of yours, then I have to congratulate the heck out of you, Mike. Why indeed would a straight person EVER choose to be gay? Just for kicks? No way. If you're really straight, the same sex is a *turn-off* every single time.

    I do worry about many christian leaders that insist that it's a choice. It makes me think that it is likely that they were naturally gay and being straight was the 'choice' they made, because of social pressures. So naturally they'd all say it was a choice to be gay, since they are forcing themselves to choose to be straight. This would jibe with why many of them turn out to have gay encounters and get into trouble. It makes a lot of sense, common sense, that a gay person in a christian environment would HAVE to stay in the closet and pretend that he was straight, no? And a lot of sense also that eventually the veneer would crack.

    I mean, reversing the situation for clarity, if you were forcing yourself to sleep with *men* in order to be accepted by your friends and congregation etc., if you knew that if you told them that you liked women they'd all despise you and cast you out of their society, don't you think that you'd REALLY want a woman if you thought you could sneak it in there? I mean, if you can imagine the reverse of the situation here?

    It makes me want to publish an 'Official Guide To Whether You're A Gay Man Or Not.'

    All the guide wold say is "Have you ever, even once in your life, found a man sexually attractive? If yes, you're gay or bisexual, if not you're straight"

    Then list numbers for support groups... lol...

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  139. You understand that such a man, in deep denial of his own biology, would deny *to himself* that he was gay, even *while* having sex with men?

    ReplyDelete
  140. Mike said "Just digested some new information about people who are born with one to many chromosomes depending on which extra one they received x or y can determine the sexual outcome of a persons sexual preference…"

    This is MI quality bunk.

    ReplyDelete
  141. Hmm...

    Could well be, Ryan.

    Especially since I don't think one can have an extra 'X' chromosome.

    I considered it. Mayne it's more likely than I first thought, though.

    Oh well, 'that's showbiz!'

    ReplyDelete
  142. Although, this is probably what he saw...

    Or some website based on this research...

    It doesn't seem conclusive yet to me.

    ReplyDelete
  143. I should add that, while not conclusive, it does seem to have at least some validity.

    So it wasn't 'extra' X or Y chromosomes after all. This is actually possible.

    ReplyDelete
  144. Ah, Brian, I should have realized Mike would think additional information on a chromosone and being born with "to (sic) many chromosomes" were the same thing.

    With that said, since this study shows that the gene might come from the father, you'd think Christians would have an interest in everyone coming out of the closet so no gay men in denial are breeding and passing this gene on...

    But who ever accused them of thinking ahead.

    ReplyDelete
  145. Actually on the doctor oz show today he was interviewing a woman who gave birth to twins and one of them had the extra Y chromosome. It was very interesting he went into great detail about it.

    ReplyDelete
  146. It was an extra Y only I made a mistake when I said an extra x.

    ReplyDelete
  147. I'd heard that all the hooplah about the dreaded extra 'Y' chromosome was discredited. They used to claim it produced a more violent, primitive type of personality, more prone to crime.

    Mike, that still doesn't explain anything about your comments regarding being wrong about how you see homosexuality and why you think the bible might be wrong. Where did you get that?

    ReplyDelete
  148. Observant,

    You know, this is interesting. To think, I wrote countless words and spent much time writing to you on Dinesh's blog and here about Homosexuality. And you simply ignored what I wrote and insulted me about how I condone perverts and so forth. How un-Christian I was and a false prophet.

    I'm happy you saw something that showed you maybe a different side to this that you hadn't considered. After all, I'm not a doctor or a scientist.

    All I wanted to do was make you put this into perspective and then rationalize it with what's taught in the Bible. I asked you if you ever have been attracted to the same sex. If not, why not? You see, why would a person choose to be discriminated against and be looked upon as a pervert and persecuted against? Attraction is not a choice. It can't be. We have no idea why we like certain things over other things.

    Back to the Bible. I believe Peter's speech going over being natural to yourself actually advocated Homosexuals. If you are born gay, obviously God approves of this. God is the creator after all and is all knowing. Asking why did he doe this is the wrong question.

    If you are born gay, you are NORMAL in that state. So be normal to yourself. If you go against what is natural, you get yourself into trouble and hurt others. So when Gay men, because of peer pressure and fear, end up marrying a women to fit in, they end up being exposed in the long run and everyone gets hurt. If they stayed true to themselves, that wouldn't happen.

    Back in the day, many of the references in the Bible in regards to homosexuality was due to the fact that the surrounding areas had ritualistic sexual practices. Men on men, women on women, orgies, you name it. All in the name of worshipping a false god or goddess. That's why you read what you read in regards to same sex stuff in the Bible.

    I'm telling you, you need to open minded in everything because the answers are here. Only through knowledge, experience and guidance can you correlate everything into what's taught.

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  149. Observant,

    I'm also looking forward to reading what you think of this past weekends Beckapalooza. Embarassing, yes?

    I wonder how many Christians were there? What do you think, 80,000? And there they were, motivated, moved, crying, and cheering a man who is a Mormon. So when this man is referencing God all through out the speech, which God in your opinion is he specifically referring to? The Mormon God?

    It was obvious to me, at least now, what this has all been about since the beginning. He is extremely jealous of Obama. All the love and hope that was shown towards him, made him want some too. He wanted to experience it. But he went about it in a totally different way. He used fear, lies, and propoganda and went after Christians. Mainly harcore conservative christianists.

    And they fell for it.

    Remember, those that preach to us, we are to judge. And we can fairly judge him now after speech on God and what we are supposed to do.

    And he clearly does not advocate what Jesus advocated. As I'm sure you are aware of now.

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  150. What the fuck. Where did my other comment go. It was here and now it's gone.

    ReplyDelete
  151. Brian said,

    "...I do wonder sometimes why Mike still comes here, happy as I am that he does. What does HE get out of it, I wonder? I mean, he comes here, drops in a few highly biased factually incorrect opinions, gets slaughtered, and fades out without adressing any of our questions, only to come back and do it all over again.

    I was thinking that it's like a doubt game or something. As in, he comes here, aquires doubts, albeit slight ones, and then he has something to 'pray away' on sunday.

    Or maybe to him we're like a zoo. All the atheists lines up in their cages for him to look at. A curiousity or something.

    I've given up on the idea that he comes here trying to save us. He's just not that into helping others.

    Any guesses? I'm a bit stymied. Maybe he feels a kinship to us after all this time? I mean, I guess I do too, so that could be it."

    I'll hazard a guess...

    I bet he hasn't a clue how so many observably intelligent people can reject the "truth" of Christianity, a "truth" that he sees so clearly himself.

    We've already debunked the usual Christian 'reasons' why we're atheists:

    That we "hate" God (Nope. no god to hate; remember what "atheist" means?)

    That we want to be unencumbered by the so-called "objective morality" that Christians believe can only come from God (Can you say "atheist" again?)

    That we worship either ourselves or Satan, depending on whether we've pissed the Christians off thoroughly enough (Satan is God's evil twin, and we don't believe in him, either. As for worshipping ourselves, remember that worship is an activity; atheists don't spend time "worshipping" ANYTHING, as nothing will RESPOND to that worship).

    This one's "Eric-esque": that we're just in denial of the forceful, logical arguments that (Christian) philosophers have advanced through the centuries, said arguments being logically impossible to refute, or so the Christians say (Mike's probably in agreement with the atheists on a number of these arguments, especially Aquinas (an EEVUL Catholic), Plantinga (a Calvinist), and anyone else who's not the correct flavor of "Baptist")

    -------------------------------

    An aside:

    Q. Mike, why don't Baptists have sex standing up?

    A. Because they don't want anyone to mistakenly think they're dancing.

    -----------------------------

    Where was I?

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  152. In the news. That darned Obama! Why isn't he giving Bush credit for starting the war?

    Why isn't he giving Bush and his cronies credit for justifying the war? Hey, there's no WMDs in Iraq NOW? Right?

    And there was NO DOUBT in Cheney's mind that there WERE WMD's there, right?

    Ergo, they found them, right?

    Oh, wait,(ha ha ha hmmm) that's NOT why Bush and Cheney went to war with Iraq at ALL, is it?

    Nono, it was because Saddam was working around UN sanctions! THAT'S why the USA led a UN team effort to oust the Saddam regime!

    No, that couldn't have been it because the USA and Britian had to drum up their own "coalition of the willing" against the UN's wishes.(fuck the UN anyways, right!)

    Well, Saddam was a BAD BAD man despite having NOTHING to do with the 9/11 terrorist attack!

    Bush and Cheney really ought to take a bow for going to war to get rid of a bad bad man, right?

    I think Obama SHOULD have gone through all the excuses for the war and told the mothers, fathers and siblings of the casualties to thank Bush, Cheney et al for their sons and daughters, sisters and brothers dying to rid the World of one bad man.

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  153. Here's the problem that I have with the Goddies and their sex hang-ups.

    All kinds of animals from tiny to giant have some kind of sex. Now there's no spiritual being or absolute moral rules supposedly 'guiding' them in their quest to satisfy their sex drives.

    And sex drives they have! We cannot deny that. Without sex drives there'd be no animals male and female around because sex just wouldn't concern them.

    Now to have a sex drive or not is NOT A CHOICE!

    We don't get to a certain age and choose to suddenly be interested in sex!

    I think we must be willing to admit that it is out of our hands, we do NOT choose to be sexual beings any more than a mouse or an elephant chooses this.

    What we can 'make a stab at' here is to say that being intelligent beings we can over-ride the sex drive and choose to NOT have sex even if our hormones are gearing us up for it.

    And I think that this is where people who are not willing to think about it are getting a little confused.

    If sex drive isn't a choice(and it isn't), then which sex you are oriented towards(for whatever NATURAL reason(shrug)) isn't a choice EITHER!

    If your sex drive happens to orient you to be attracted to people of the same sex, and there's a religious taboo about this, then you ARE going to be conflicted.

    I think that even Mike can agree with this.

    I don't think he WILL agree, but I think, as a thinking person, he could agree.

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  154. Now Mike might want to get obtuse about this and say something like, "Those boys, some of them, anything with a hole!", but, we're not talking about them really, we're talking about males who identify themselves as the female partner in a sex act and men who consistently choose males THAT indentify themselves as the female partner in a sex act.

    It's all suitably confusing. Confusing to everyone really BECAUSE we really have no choice about who we are attracted to.

    What do you think Mike, blondes or brunettes? Fat ones or skinny? What floats your boat? Is it a choice?

    Meh, I don't think so.

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  155. Hitchens on a roll! Keeping it real! Yeah!!

    http://patrickmadrid.blogspot.com/


    Man, if this guy were a true Believer, I'd sit and listen to his preaching any day of the week!

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  156. MI said,

    "Man, if this guy were a true Believer, I'd sit and listen to his preaching any day of the week!"

    Who said Christians were "open minded"?

    Oh, yeah...

    The Christians.

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  157. About humans being sexual animals...

    The difficulty that religious humans have is that they're emotionally invested in the story about how we're all "made in the image of God", and that we're 'higher' than the animals.

    Then we have these 'animal' urges, but being "spiritual" and "godlike", we (Christians) feel ashamed because we've submitted to our animal nature (AND because there are arbitrary rules published by population control moguls *ahem* divinely inspired prophets who say that it's a SIN!).

    It's about DENIAL of who we are as living beings once again.

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  158. Pboy said,

    If your sex drive happens to orient you to be attracted to people of the same sex, and there's a religious taboo about this, then you ARE going to be conflicted.

    I think that even Mike can agree with this.

    I don't think he WILL agree, but I think, as a thinking person, he could agree.
    ------------------------

    Well of course I would agree, that is the point. If the bible said kissing was wrong then every Christian would believe it to be wrong even though they would probably be enjoying it at the same time.
    But getting back to the extra Y chromosome in some people could be the explanation as to why some are attracted to same sex. If this would turn out to be the case then I would have to say that theu would be excluded from the Bible version of Homosexuality..

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  159. "Well of course I would agree, that is the point. If the bible said kissing was wrong then every Christian would believe it to be wrong even though they would probably be enjoying it at the same time."

    You are missing my point entirely. I don't go around kissing men and women or not kissing men and women with whether the bible permits it or not in mind, and I don't think anyone else does either. But this is just getting mixed up again, because a large proportion of men WOULDN'T be kissing men anyways, yet women think nothing of kissing each other, and there's kissing and 'kissing' too, so it's a bad example.

    It's a confusing example(perhaps DESIGNED to confuse) because kissing is sometimes part of sex and sometimes not.

    I sorted out the difference between having a choice(actually having sex with someone) and not having a choice(everyone's sex drive)and you simply want to confuse the issue again.

    Now, I'm not gay at all Mike, but I think that if two men want to be married in the 'eyes of' the STATE then as two consenting adults they have this right.

    If you imagine that it's against God's will, then it's really up to you to imagine that it's God's problem as far as that goes and NOT your problem at all.

    If you believe all that is said in the Bible, then, hey, don't be laying with men and don't be getting married to a man. That's fairly straight-forward, isn't it.

    Seems to me that it's the Christians with the gay sex drive that are objecting on the grounds that it shouldn't be allow for anyone if it's not allowed for them!

    This IS a secular society, look after your OWN 'spirituality' Mike! Fuckin' with others is NOT something you have to do.
    .

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  160. Seems to me Mike, that the Bible deals with the issue of sex as if men are all of the 'kind' that would stick their weenie into any hole available without some kind of rules and regulations.

    Going by these old standards, if a man rapes a woman he gets to marry that woman(as a punishment?), and if a man rapes another man, he ought to be put to death.

    But in reality, neither of these things happen, so there's a GIANT disconnect between Bible morality and what Christians actually do, even in their capacity as Christians.

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  161. Seems to me Mike that you'd be willing to accept polygamy according to your Bible's rules.

    I think we can understand the STATE'S position regarding this. If we just let anyone marry anyone then marriage becomes meaningless because everyone can't be everyone's next of kin and beneficiaries of tax benefits and such concerning marriage.

    But the polygamists just smile and say that they are NOT married in the eyes of the STATE at all, they are married in the eyes of the LORD and the state doesn't have a leg to stand on simply because non-polygamists AREN'T put in jail for having 'an affair', for HAVING two relationships.

    Similarly gay men trying to to the Christian thing aren't put in jail for having a legal wife yet having relationships with men too.

    Where the STATE has a say is if a man tries to have two legal wives, and the confusion lies in Christians imagining thaat a 'spiritual marriage' is necessarilly a LEGAL marriage and vice versa.

    No marriage at all is a 'spiritual marriage' to an atheist so the idea of two people marrying each other to benefit from STATE laws is fine.

    But for you to claim that all marriage is 'spiritual', whether the two in question are Christians, atheists or both males or both females seems to me to be a bit of sour grapes, just you imagining that marriage 'ties' us to the notion of GOD, when it doesn't, no.

    The STATE is NOT an agent of GOD.

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  162. Mike:

    As the only other physician (other than Pliny) currently at this blog, let me clarify a few things for you.
    1) We have known for many years that certain individuals are born with an extra x or y chromosome. In many of these cases this seems to have little or no effect upon there apparent gender or their adult sexual orientation. (although the XYY genetic code seems to produce a "super" female with regard to secondary sex characteristics and occasionally a voracic appetite for sex, but not with females).
    2) There are other individuals who are "mosaics" or "Chimeras" who have one set of sex chromosomes in all of their body cells and the opposite in there reproductive cells. This may lead to an individual with the secondary sex characterisitics of one gender and the reproductive tissues of the opposite, sometimes referred to as an hermaphrodite.
    3)None of these situations has been (at least thus far) incriminated in homosexuality or gender orientation, for that matter.
    4) In any event, even if Christians were convinced that homosexuality was beyond the control of the individual in question, their interpretation of the Bible would still declare it to be a "sin", since it must have been "God's will" that the individual "sinner" was born that way. This would, incidentally, completely blow the idea of "free choice" out of the water. Since fundamentalist believers MUST reconcile the idea of original sin and the acceptance of Jesus as Saviour in order to get to heaven, they CANNOT accept homosexuality as anything other than a "choice", from which Christianity should be able to "save" them, if only they were not so "stiff-necked".
    5) I must commend you for having allowed a source of knowledge such as a TV show to at least make you think about the possibility that your previously held beliefs on this subject were subject to question.

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  163. Guess there's not much point in talking to you Mike, 'cos you guys, even your 'false god' guys, have had a couple of thousand years to twist this in on itself to the point where there's no untwisting to be had.

    Look at your, basically rhetorical 'argument' about the equivalence of sex laws with kissing laws.

    I don't think that that came off the top of your head, I think it's boiler-plate Christian-think, where the idea is not to 'discuss' the ideas but to pretend to discuss them with the object of us coming to your conclusion.

    You can be nothing like Muslims, Catholics, protestants, Mormons, deists when that suits you and enlist them on 'your side' when THAT suits you.

    You can say that something MUST be true because, after all 'most people believe in GOD', then deny something else is true because 'most people worship false gods'.

    And I don't think you see this as any kind of 'failing'. Just lucky you that you can outsmart the atheists.

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  164. Pboy said,

    You are missing my point entirely.
    ---------------------------

    No, I’m not. If there was no source of condemnation then there would be no taboo.

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  165. Pboy said,
    Now, I'm not gay at all Mike, but I think that if two men want to be married in the 'eyes of' the STATE then as two consenting adults they have this right.
    ----
    I agree, they have as much right as any to marry whomever they want according to the laws of liberty.
    --------------------------------------------

    If you imagine that it's against God's will, then it's really up to you to imagine that it's God's problem as far as that goes and NOT your problem at all.
    -------
    I couldn’t agree more.
    ---------------------

    If you believe all that is said in the Bible, then, hey, don't be laying with men and don't be getting married to a man. That's fairly straight-forward, isn't it.
    ----
    Yes it is.
    ----------------------

    Seems to me that it's the Christians with the gay sex drive that are objecting on the grounds that it shouldn't be allow for anyone if it's not allowed for them!
    ---------
    It would appear to me that they are not true Christians any way.
    -----------------

    This IS a secular society, look after your OWN 'spirituality' Mike! Fuckin' with others is NOT something you have to do.
    .
    ---------
    I agree good show pboy.

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  166. Seems to me that it's the Christians with the gay sex drive that are objecting on the grounds that it shouldn't be allow for anyone if it's not allowed for them!
    ---------
    It would appear to me that they are not true Christians any way.
    -----------------------------------
    If they believe in god and jesus and feel guilty that they're secretly attracted to other men, or if they're in total denial and really BELIEVE that 'just because they occassionally find men attractive doesn't mean that they're gay,' you're saying that that makes them not true christians? Why? They're sinners then, no? In christianity's eyes, they're believers who are also sinners. This not only DOESN'T make them 'false christians' but in reality it makes them EXACTLY like all other 'real' christians. Because Mike, GOD NEVER SAID REAL CHRISTIANS HAD TO BE WITHOUT SIN! GOD ADMITS THAT ALL PEOPLE SIN! YOU TOO, ARE A SINNER, RIGHT? SO YOU'RE NOT A REAL CHRISTIAN???

    The rest of that last post, well, it didn't even look like you typed it. Too enlightened.
    Either you're growing as a person here (I hope) or you're screwing around with us, dude.

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  167. Yeah, the good ol' "Everyone is a dirty sinner, however, we know for certain that [insert horrible murderous dictator/serial killer's name] couldn't have been a real christian because he was a dirty sinner" dichotomy never made much sense.

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  168. Harvey, thank you there. Fascinating. Glad to have your input.

    So I was wrong and there can be extra x and y chromosomes. Very interesting and cool.

    Harry said recently that he likes it here because even when we go over the same old territory we see new things. Very true.

    I'd be a very different person I think, if I'd never started posting to that old DD blog and here, and known all of you. A less informed and enlightened one.

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  169. Pboy said,
    But for you to claim that all marriage is 'spiritual', whether the two in question are Christians, atheists or both males or both females seems to me to be a bit of sour grapes, just you imagining that marriage 'ties' us to the notion of GOD, when it doesn't, no.
    ----------------------------
    The only spiritual marriage that I am aware of is between Christ and His church.
    Mind you, NOT all Christian people are his church nor are all church’s his. there is just one church he will claim as his and it’s not the Catholic…

    I believe the Bible to teach that God ordained the marriage between a man and a women as described in the book of Genesis concerning Adam and Eve, but that is not a spiritual marriage ,that marriage pertains to this life. There is NO marring or giving in marriage in heaven.
    Just because one relates the origin of marriage to Genesis does not qualify it for a marriage of spiritual capacity unless you are suggesting it is because God ordained it.

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  170. Mike said,

    "...I believe the Bible to teach that God ordained the marriage between a man and a women as described in the book of Genesis..."

    Um, Mike... I hate to get picky again, but wom'E'n is plural. Wom'A'n is just one. So unless you're a mormon...

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  171. So Mike, ever unwilling to play wordgames, you declare that marriage isn't 'spiritual union' at all, but in fact a God-ordained union.

    How can you miss my point so completely and not notice it?

    Seems to me that gays are concerned about STATE ordained marriage and the STATE benefits that that entails.

    Even if the gays imagine that they're Christian and get a pastor/minister to marry them, well, 'So what?', they weren't 'real' Christians in your books anyways, right?

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  172. And, sorry, once again Mike, the STATE is NOT an agent of GOD!

    ReplyDelete
  173. link

    This is Cenk Uygur taking on a republican on social security.

    It's amazing. If only there were more like him.

    Towards the end the guy's just attacking cenk, the standards, nonpatriotic, hates the soldiers.. pathetic. Cenk absolutely flayed this asshole, and managed to mix cold reason with maniacal insistence on the truth. It was like watching a man getting mauled by a tiger. Great stuff.

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  174. Would they cut people off from old age pensions?

    Well, there's a series of options, as Bill Clinton said..


    LOL Poor Bill Clinton is supposed to take the blame if the Republicans put poor old people out on the street. LOL

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  175. Oh well, the real Christians will throw them a sammich every now and then if that happens!

    Good ol' real Christians!

    Let's hear it for them! YAY!

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  176. I loved the congressman's answer to Cenk's referal to unjustifiable wars.

    Basically, "You're not a real Markin! We start wars, that's. what. we. do."

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  177. And who can blame them? All one needs to do is read through The Good Book about God helping his Chosen People to defeat their enemies, who were living on land that God gave them, apparently without bothering to inform them.

    Isn't God moral and just and great? He helps his people to defeat the enemy that they've picked on to commandeer their land.(in God's name, of course.)

    Well, of course we can see from this how the Bible isn't evil, right Botts.

    NOTHING. DONE. IN GOD'S NAME CAN BE EVIL.

    You know, unless it's what Hitler was doing. But THAT was 'different'. What Hitler was doing wasn't rewritten in flowery language with a bunch of thees and thous, it-came-to-pass-es and BEHOLDs, plus Hitler lost.

    Winners HOLY, losers EVIL.

    Message understood.

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  178. Obviously, the book’s not even out yet, but this may be the end of the Ontological Argument.

    Bye Bye Aquinus & Anslem!!!

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  179. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-11137903

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  180. Would they cut people off from old age pensions?

    Well, there's a series of options, as Bill Clinton said..


    LOL Poor Bill Clinton is supposed to take the blame if the Republicans put poor old people out on the street. LOL
    -----------------
    I KNOW! While watching the interview all I could think of that idiot was 'why, the unmitigated gall!'

    Unbelievable. More of these amoral dipshits need to be taken down like that. They fall apart in front of a REAL reporter.

    He squirmed like a salted slug. I could watch it over and over...

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  181. Ed, great pictures of that waterfall.

    If I were there I'd have had my wife take the pics and I would have jumped in... What a visual that'd be! Baptism in blood, so to speak.

    Very cool, thanks.


    Ryan, very happy to hear about Hawking's new book. Can't wait to hear the repercussions. I'm sure that the theists will just take it in stride and retreat back into 'god invented that gravity yer talkin about thar...' or some equally banal drivel. However it'll be interesting still, no doubt.

    Jerry, great story on Ascension Island. I'd love to go there and see it firsthand, wouldn't you? But talk about remote!

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  182. One thing I didn't get about that waterfall story though. If I read it right, they noticed the red water in the stream and then somehow made it to the falls *ahead* of it, and then *had to wait two hours???*

    What were they driving, a skycycle?

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  183. Ya know, I missed something rather obvious in regards to the Glenn Beck rally this past weekend.

    Glenn Beck is now talking about how he mis-spoke when he called Obama a racist. Now he's maintaining that Obama is a 'lberation theologist.'

    Oooooooooooooooo....

    And what exactly was Martin Luther King, pray tell?

    Of course, the very man whose mantle he was trying to steal, was not only a liberation theologist, but perhaps the most famous liberation theologist since Jesus Christ Himself...

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  184. Ryan,

    The ontological argument ended as soon as it was thought about.

    Brian,

    What the heck does Beck mean by 'liberation theologist?'

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  185. Basically it sems he means that they're concerned with the liberation of the oppressed (DISGUSTING! GASP!) instead of personal salvation.

    I know, and it's as bad as it sounds as far as I can see. It's like he's basically saying 'Jesus wasn't about helping the poor and oppressed, that's all wrong! Jesus was really about getting me to heaven!

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  186. "Ladies and gentlemen, the surprise Tea-party President elect, a man you could have a beer or two dozen with then start a donnybrook at closing time, President Ogg!"

    (massive cheers and not a few gun-shots in the air)

    "Now President Ogg, could you restate your policy on Social Security and, in fact all entitlement programs?"

    "Ogg no like, Ogg smash!"

    (fanatical cheering)

    "What's your foreign policy, what can be done with touchy areas like the Middle East and Korea, for example?"

    "Ogg no like, Ogg smash!

    (more cheering, men openly sobbing with joy)

    "There you have it ladies and gentlemen, what President Ogg lacks in nuance and sophistocation he makes up for with strength and certainty! The President you deserve, ladies and gentlemen, President OGG!"

    (Grown rednecks fainting in the aisles)

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  187. what I find amusing is that a bunch of American Protestants are letting themselves be told that the Presidents theology is all wrong, by a Mormon.

    Makes no sense.

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  188. Somehow, I fail to understand what aspect of the President's declared or undeclared belief system (or lack thereof, for that matter) has any bearing either on his ability to lead this country in trying times, other than that the majority (Christian) belief system insists that we all must "pay it the respect it deserves". Unfortunately, because the majority of the founders professed to be Christians (albeit with varying degrees of observance or belief) and despite their repeatedly stated ideal of separation of Church and State, our fundamentalist colleagues insist that we are and by "right" ought to be a "Chrisitan Nation". What better way to cast doubt and aspersions on this presidency than to imply that Mr Obama is "not a real Christian" or, better yet, a closet Muslim? This approach spares his detractors from needing to say anything about the real issues that face this country or any need to suggest better ways to deal with them.

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  189. Obama stated in 94, and at least a few times before being elected president that we are our brothers keeper, and we are our sisters keeper. How much plainer could he make where he stands. That is what Jesus was talking about, but what most Christians are focused on is getting their own ass to a mythical heaven that they seem to know little about. The kingdom of heaven, and the spiritual brotherhood of man is synonymous, and it seems that Obama understands that. Most Christians, like Observant, seem to miss that point entirely.

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  190. I do see some similarities between the biblical story of the crowd going for Barabbas over Jesus, and the crowd of today (Christians on the right) going for Cheney type thinking (Republicans) over Obama.

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  191. "All very well but how Christian does Observant think you are?"

    Judgin by his Homosexual comment the other day, he's starting to at least see where I've been coming from. And if he can start to see that, I have faith he can start to see everything else.

    "Hatemongers have hi-jacked Christianity and Islam for their own use."

    For control. State control. Seems to me, guys like Gingrich are jealous of Saudi Arabia. A country like that, with all the money can control an entire Country on Faith based laws. We should do the same. But that would be wrong to do, and Jesus wouldn't want that.

    "One simply gets people to believe that 'hated others' are the cause of their distress, ("Government keep your hands off our Medicare!") to control their actions."

    Fear is the most useful tool to control a group of people. And anyone with an objective mind and not a closed one can see what has happened since Obama came to be the President. Fear is an illusion. It's something we manufacture over time. And we are are in a group setting, there is nothing better to motivate a group than to make them aspire to rise against something, even if there is nothing there. Christians, even rightly faithful ones are prone to fall into those kinds of traps. It's sad to see.

    "How can one love this 'they know not what they do' neighbour?"

    Some know what they are doing and some simply are mind fucked to the point where all sense of reality is gone. I love everyone. And I believe that people can change for the better even when it doesn't look it will happen. I believe that it can happen. The littlest thing and most non-important instance can open a persons mind.

    "How long have you tried to reason with Observant, Botts?"

    3 years. I know his words. I don't know his mind.

    "There IS NO reasoning with him. He only listens to 'like-minded' Christians through his email contact list. You know, the shit-disturbing, abortion is evil, homosexuality is evil, atheism is evil, socialism is evil, Islam is evil etc. etc"

    Give him some credit. The same credit you would give others. People do change. And I'm of the belief that God and the Holy Spirit can grab someones attention even when that person has no idea that it's those two doing it. They can interpret whatever that moment is in their own way. But if they break free from their prison of a mind, then it's worth it.

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