Sunday, April 3, 2011

Deus Ex-pectorate

I was just talking to my wife...

I noticed on Sesame Street (of which I watch far too much for the good of my sanity,) that the characters on 'Abby's Flying Fairy School' (another right-winger nightmare, that title) during a discussion of what people say when someone sneezes, stated that the choices were 'bless you' and 'gesundheit.'

Both of which I believe relate to the christian god.

So in fairyland where there are trolls and pixies, they also say 'bless you' when a someone sneezes. Apparently the christian god is also a part of their mythos, along with gerbilcorns and macaronisauruses.

Which got me to thinking... What should atheists say when someone sneezes? We tend to say 'bless you' due to cultural pressure, but that's really going against our beliefs, or rather the lack of them. Plus, it makes me feel slightly 'unclean.' And hypocritical. Very hypocritical. I know that's not a problem for christians, it being their way of life and all, but it bothers me a great deal.

We atheists need a word or a phrase that can be said in response to a sneeze that is as secular, as atheistic, as 'god bless you' is religious and theistic.

We need a sneeze phrase with No God Included.

So I was going to ask you all here to come up with something... maybe make it like a little contest or something like that. "What would be the most appropriate thing for atheists to say when someone sneezes?" Sounds fun, right?

But then I went and googled the question, and the number one response that I found, is I think just too good to beat.

The number one thing, and indeed in my opinion the best possible thing that atheists should say when someone sneezes is:

"Shut your god-damned mouth!"



However, since it doesn't fly in polite society, again due to cultural pressure (in other words, two millennia of social brainwashing,) I suppose we still need a 'nice-sounding' atheist sneeze phrase. Any ideas?


  1. Awesome!

    Back in 1981, I was working as a laborer in a shrimp factory in Tampa, Florida. My workmate was this Cuban dude from New Jersey named Tony, and one day, we were talking about this very issue. He and I already knew each other to be atheists, so it wasn't forced or anything, and on this particular day, the action was slow in the peeling room because the ladies were peeling very tiny shrimps.

    So I asked him.

    "Why do people say 'Bless you' when you sneeze?"

    He shrugged. "I dunno."

    So I said, "Why don't we say 'Damn you to Hell', instead?"

    He laughed and we started doing that, as long as we both still worked there.

    I revived this practice among the people who stop by and play D&D here (mostly teen friends of my kids), and they all know to say to me,

    "Damn you to Hell" when I sneeze, to which I reply,

    Why, thank you!"

  2. Long Live You could say I bless you, and leave god out of it.

  3. It would really be fitting for you to say, I bless you, being a saint after all.

  4. Gesundheit has always worked perfectly for me. It means "to your health" in German. No mystical forces are invoked.

  5. Oh, I thought gesundheit still referred to god. If it's just 'to your health' then I guess that's secular enough... but it's german.
    I prefer something in english. Since it's our language and all. Call me sentimental.

  6. How about "Hey! You sneezed!"

    Or perhaps "Happy Sternutation!"

    Or we could boil down the german 'gesundheit' to just read 'good health!'

  7. Or we could go 'old-fashioned' and say 'May you not die of consumption' whenever someone sneezes.
    That'd be nice, too...

  8. Hey, how about that Terry Jones asshole? He finally did burn that Koran he wanted to burn so badly... the result was like ten UN workers murdered, two by decapitation, and oh yeah, two US soldiers shot by an irate Afghani policeman. Plus extensive riots continue and are spreading.
    Well done, sir Terry. I guess he showed those muslims, huh? What a way to make his point that it's a violent religion, I guess. (so is his) By sacrificing our forces. He knew what the reaction would be. Hell, he was told what the reaction would be, and it didn't phase him in the least.

    What a maroon.

  9. Some reporter asked him (Jones) the other day 'Can't you relate? What if someone was burning your sacred book, the Bible? The Koran is sacred to them'
    He responded, referring to the Koran, 'It's not sacred to me...'
    Lovely. True christian empathy at work. One can see the result of christianity's 'coercive morality' so clearly in him.

  10. It may well be that Mr. Jones does not really understand his own faith. Much like some people of Islamic faith. I suspect that God will have a talk with Mr. Jones.

    As to sneezing, I don't often say anything. Belches, farts and various expectorations don't really need a commentary. They just happen.

  11. How about something with more modern sensibilities like : "Hey you $%^^%# cover your mouth before you spew germs everywhere you $^&$&^*!"

    It that more American sounding?

  12. I hadn't gotten the chance to read Pliny's April 1 post till just now.

    I highly recommend it.

    Here's what I said to him on his blog:

    "Pliny, Pliny, Pliny...

    You my friend, are a truly excellent author. Why are you not doing this for a living?

    I do not give such praise lightly. This reminded me of Harlan Ellison. Only with more technical expertise, and nothing lost for all that.

    Dude, seriously, you have talent. Pursue it. Not that you're 'wasting your life' now by any measure, I'm sure, but still, I'd like to read more by you in this style. I'd pay for the privilege. And so would others."

  13. As for the Rev Jones, I have a simple question: If an a-hole makes a spectacle absent a news camera, is there a sound?

  14. It may well be that Mr. Jones does not really understand his own faith.
    I always thought that of people like him, but I'm not so sure anymore. It seems to me that, right in the bible, there's a lot of lattitude as to what exactly we as god's people, should emulate as a role model. God the Father is, well, evil, let's face it. If he were a real father he'd get a death sentence a zillion times over... Jesus is 'gentle, meek, and mild' except when he later returns and KICKS ASS AMERICAN STYLE! So, where's the lesson, my friend? There seem to be conflicting ones all mixed in there. To believe them all, is psychosis-inducing.

    You seem to have taken more good than bad from the religion, but so many others do the opposite, and they have just as much of a valid 'biblical' defense as anyone.
    It's way too easy to use that book there for justification. Almost as if it were like, designed for such a purpose or modified for it or something... lol.
    As if, right?

  15. Pliny, it's a trick question.

    A real a-hole like Jones doesn't *make* a sound absent a news camera.

    That'd defeat his point.

  16. News Flash!

    Here's the latest in Jesus sightings!

  17. Ed, you poor, deluded atheist!

    If Jesus doesn't show up as a 'face on a pizza' and such, to give the owner luck, we might as well give up hope altogether, right?

  18. I jes cain't hep myself, Peeb...

  19. Posted by Joseph on DebunkingChristianity referencing the Krauss/William Lane Craig debate.

    "This is what I refer to as the Theory of Infinite Bullshit. There's an infinite amount of possible bullshit, and no one has time to sift through every tortured piece of apologetic philosophizing for fallacies. The apologist can just keep throwing more bullshit with ill-defined terms, functionally meaningless terms like "supranatural" or "external to the Universe", semantic word torture so egregious it's probably against the Geneva convention, appeals to common irrationalities in human worldviews, games with the limits of human conception, flagrant abuse of quantum theory, and on and on and on. You can argue, if you like, but it's not going to end; they're not limited to empirical reality. It's the Never-Ending Rectum.

    The only reliable filter for this is the demand for observable, empirical evidence, which is why we base the computers we're all reading this on, for example, on Newton and Turing and not on Aristotle or Thomas Aquinas. Now Newton, of course, believed some really, really stupid things regarding alchemy and the Bible, which is why we only accept the parts of Newton's work that are empirically demonstrable. You can use Calculus to build a rocket. It fucking *works*. The Craig Lanes of the world will object, of course, that just because we can't build things based on philosophers' work doesn't make them *wrong*. It's the old burden-of-proof trick. Well, we don't have time to disprove every jackass with a theory, even dead famous jackasses or their modern-day fanboys.

    So scientists will continue to make solid, quantifiable discoveries about how the world actually *works*, discoveries that not only *can* be empirically proven but *must* be, while theologians go on constructing purely mental edifices that have no actual relation to reality. Some of these people are quite intelligent, but intelligence is limited by the stupidity of what it's being used for, and that's what makes this such a sad, sad waste of brainpower. They come up with medieval crap like Kalam and Plantinga and Aquinas because nothing new has been done or said since. Nothing new *can* be. There's no evidence, no data, no reproducible results. It's a philosophical circle-jerk, a millenia-long marathon of mutual masturbation.

    No one's under any obligation to show your philosophical constructs up as false until you provide some sort of tangible reason they should be taken seriously in the first place.

    Too freaking brilliant not to share.

  20. I saw that too, Ryan.

    I've been hanging out in DC a lot, as I'm sure you noticed...

  21. I think Mike may be on to something. Why even address a sneeze? I sneeze quite often. It's no big deal, I have sensitive nasal passages.
    I sneeze when I step out of the shower daily. It was never a problem, until I broke 4 ribs and my sternum - then it hurt, badly. But, I still didn't need blessed !

    I guess one could say anything. I like your suggestion, Brian. I might change it a bit to reflect my sensibilities... "Cover your fucking sneeze, Asshole"

  22. Thanks for sharing that Joseph quote, ryan. It really IS brilliant. Makes so much sense.

    Especially the part about why people like Eric are forced to quote Aquinas and so forth. Totally logical. It's the last thing they had, the last 'success' if you will. After that, not much.

  23. Brian:

    In Spanish Salud!(Salute! in Italian, a votre sante in French,and most other Romance languages) or some variant of a word referring to (good) health is used ( etc.). At least such a response to a sneeze does not need to include a deity, although it is, in a sense, a prayer of sorts.

  24. So agin we have 'to your health' or a variant thereof. If we use english. I agree, it's secular enough, but it sounds like you should be raising glasses in a toast.

    It doesn't satisfy.


    Dunno. Happy paroxysm? Nice sinusorgasm? Great spray you got there?

  25. We should either say nothing, or if some ambient 'bless you' arises say something completely random like 'groundhog pussy,' 'you don't really mean that,' 'Tuesday doesn't exist,' or 'so, you like fat women?'

    The latter would be my favorite for saying to any ornery religious females.

  26. Harry, I didn't know you liked big girls...

  27. Well, they don't cry when I judge them. Being the manly Pharisee that I am.

  28. I like 'em too, Harry ;-)

    (or is that I like 'em hairy, too?)

  29. Brian,

    I can't come up with a thing about those notes.

    Why couldn't you ask of me something useless, and abstract? If on the off chance I wouldn't know, you could throw it out to Eric.

  30. You might ask someone who sneezes if they believe that they are vulnerable to evil demons entering their body.

    Is there any other kind of demon, by the way?

  31. pboy,

    As some people joke, we may not possess free will, but we possess free won't.

    Thought you might like this.

  32. Yea, funny Jerry. If only that were even true.

    Hey, on politics. There seems to be only one solution.

    Let the states that want to secede secede.

    Since there isn't a good reason for the USA to be off in Afghanistan and Iraq fighting for 'freedom' or 'defending the USA' or whatever it is they think they're doing, bring the boys and girls back home.

    Obama may have been elected as a Democrat but he's sure no liberal or progressive.

    Oh yea. Put the highest tax brackets back up to when Eisenhower was the Republican President of the U.S.A., that can't be bad, eh?

  33. I notice that the left are all on board with Obama again, him having said all the right ideological things. This, only days after the sell out of quite a few liberal government agencies such as the EPA.

    I had to shake my head at the reaction of Ed and Rachael on MSNBC, and even to the theatrical pleas of Ryan suggesting that Obama was toying with his emotions.

    Seems to me that Obama's entire presidency to date has been about 'toying with the left's emotions'.

    Smarmy-faced REPs/Teabaggers gloating about how they 'win' no matter what.

    We'll see.

  34. You suck B! Now you got me started back on a sort of novella I had been pondering for quite awhile.

  35. Good Pliny, because I was serious. You are a talented writer and I'd like to see you pursue it. I bet you make it. Seriously.
    Submit that short story about the baby in the womb to any magazine that publishes such things, and they'll take it. And pay you for it. I bet you a dollar it gets published first try.

    Hell, I've even done that, and I haven't got a tenth your talent. I've been published several times in trade journals relating to minerology and gemology. Boring... Plus once in a book, as you guys know... But you, you sonofabitch, you're a good author. A real author. Like I said, you remind me of Harlan Ellison, and that aint hay. So, get started! Pick a venue and submit it!

  36. 1. Let Texas and other retarded states secede.

    2. Allow them to become their own independent countries.

    3. Bomb the living hell out of them. Flatten them (Make sure to kill all the republicans)

    4. Take them back. Rebuild.

    It's the only way. We needed to do this after the Civil War, and we didn't, and they just went underground and festered and organized. Now we're fighting the Civil War all over again. And they're winning this time.

  37. Is there any other kind of demon, by the way?
    A good demon? I've dated a couple in my day...

    Nah, if they're good they're angels, no?

    Or whatever. Good doobee, bad doobee. It's on that level. Romper Room.

  38. It's ironic that the republican tea partiers used the term 'death panel' in slurring Obama's health care plan.
    Now, they are actually contemplating their own 'Ryan Plan' that actually will result in many, many deaths at the low end of our social spectrum... seniors that can't pay for their coverage anymore... the disabled... disabled kids... and if we DARE to call them out on that, why they say 'you people used to hate it when we said 'death panels' and now you're being just as ridiculous and over-the-top' when it's TRUE this time! They will actually kill people with their plan, and not just a few, either, and it doesn't bother them one iota. They pretend it won't happen, or (more likely) they just don't care if it does, since Ayn Rand says that if you're not rich, you're just a social parasite. Why should they care about what they perceive as mere parasites?

    How very ill they are.

  39. I had to shake my head at the reaction of Ed and Rachael on MSNBC, and even to the theatrical pleas of Ryan suggesting that Obama was toying with his emotions.
    I lke Ed... His heart's in the right place. But he's too high-strung to be as effective as he could be, and too blinded to Obama's actual behavior...

    Rachael, I think, is a bit more sane about the whole thing though. Sure she's happy Obama's finally talking like a democrat. Hell, so am I... but I saw what he did, and it doesn't make any fucking sense. He gave shit away at the beginning of all his fights, as if he was trying to lose. A terrible negotiator, or a corrupted one...
    But heck, all that pales in comparison to Obama's REAL SIN.

    What could that be?


    This coultry NEEDED to know the truth, needed to see those assholes perp-walked in orange jumpsuits, and when he was elected I actually thought in my naivete that he would seek it, seek that truth that would set us finally free. Instead he covered for those evil assholes as if he was in on it from the start. I'll never forgive him for that. I even wonder sometimes if they 'had something on him' or perhaps found a way to threaten him and his family if he did it... at least that would make sense. But no, I suppose it's just that he's flawed and has no moral compass, like the rest of them, and just learned how to say the right words to appear a great man.

  40. I like Lawrence O'Donnell a lot. He's a laser-beam when he is on a scent... slices pieces off of people like a slab of roast beef. We need more like him. He doesn't tolerate it when they try to spin past his questions. He really hurts them.
    Too many interviewers just present both sides, AS IF equally valid, and let the viewer decide. As if the viewer can see past the spin. Stupid. That's not being a reporter, that's being a host. Penetrating questions and dogged determination are needed, or the interviewers are just giving the liars a bigger platform from whence to spew their lies.

  41. We're like 'but hey, that plan will leave a lot of poor people and the elerly and disabled out in the cold with no other option but to just die' and they're like 'hey whoa! watch the rhetoric there!'
    After they've saturated us with THEIR rhetoric, which was all lies... now they think that justifies them to label our legitimate observations empty rhetoric as well.... very frustrating. Being evil comes so naturally to them. If I were religious, I'd probaly blame it on satan, since it's so organized and pure in it's evil, it seems superhuman somehow.

  42. If we let Texas secede, in like five years we'd have to bomb it, along with the UN. Like Libya. Because they'd be creating so many more poor and disenfranchised people, and then they'd be letting so many of the poor and disenfranchised people just die with no safety nets... the cruelty would prompt action. So we'd have a good excuse, is my point.

  43. I remember when Obama said that investigations would tear the nation apart or some such thing.

    Really? And how are we doing without them?

  44. I have been listening to the debate between the two parties about health care I think they are both in denial. The cost of health care for every citizen in the country may be possible today it will soon be impossible. With new drugs, and new types of equipment coming on the market, plus the mass of people getting older the need of medical care is going up so fast that we will not be able to afford max care for all. When are we going to face that fact. I do applaud the new medical break through's in medicine, but we are out running the ability to supply everyone with every possible aid available. Regardless of which party gets their way we have to face the fact that pulling the plug on grandma is going to become a reality. (known reality)

    About the republicans. I will admit I am enjoying watching them implode. That will be short lived and they will be back after 2012, or shortly thereafter with a new look. The best we can hope for is either Michelle or Donald will start a new party, the tea party, and we can have more of a real choice. If Obama does not get with it very soon I am moving to the tea party. Not that I like them, but something has to be done about the debt that both parties are guilty of causing. We go in debt in good times as though it did not matter, and it was plain for some time what was going to happen. Do we have enough internal strength to do what is right, and quit over spending or shall we call the USA adventure over? One thing that worries me a great deal is the type of people that are being called presidential material today. My understanding is Hitler was democratically elected, and with the types we talk about today in the R party how far off is another Hitler? My guess is a more serious economic downturn, and it could happen. A depression with people starving to death, people dying due to lack of medical care, a government that is broke, and cannot take care of the citizens, another Hitler type, and another holocaust. This is one of the times I hope I am wrong.

  45. Excerpt from "Obama and the Reagan Doctrine:

    555. In other words, I'm still not convinced that things will magically get better just because there's a blue man in the White House.
    GearHedEd at 10:27AM on Nov 5th 2008
    556. Gear; of course things won't magically get better, but it's a start...
    Ryan Anderson at 10:45AM on Nov 5th 2008
    557. D'Souza was, as usual 'playing a card'.

    He knew that Reps. HATE the name Clinton with an unreasoning passion.

    Seems obvious to me that a political maneuverer like D'Souza would hope to dupe the Dems into giving them what they thought the Reps feared most.

    I think that it was a 'good' effort on the neocons part really.
    not-pboyfloyd at 11:41AM on Nov 5th 2008
    558. Blue? I thought he was black?? lol

    This is too funny. Change comes in many colors this time it isn't red - personally I love red, I'm wearing it now, but I can't say I'm unhappy about the turnout.

    For the first time in my life I was actually afraid to watch the returns on TV. My daughter was the one who persuaded me to watch with her - she's away at college. This is her first time ever voting and she was very excited as was all the kids in her dorm. I spent almost an hour on the phone with her watching the numbers and was honored that she wanted to share this historical moment with me, her dad and brother.

    If Obama does anything, he gives hope. That's it, just by being elected he has injected the populous with renewed hope in our democratic - love of freedom - country.

    It is with hope that I feel just a bit renewed at this turn of events in our history.

    I don't know what the future will hold for our economy, our foreign relations or our faith in our political administration. But I do know that the likely-hood of four more years of failure in American's eyes and that of the world is at an end.
    TJ at 11:43AM on Nov 5th 2008

  46. Excerpt, part two:

    559. Ed, you say, "I'm still not convinced that things will magically get better.."

    Well, Ed, I'm kind of hoping that no-one at all, not even Obama is expecting miracles or magical solutions.

    Imagine all the pointless praying for McCain.

    What, you can't? Then you have no imagination at all and the praying was also that impotent too! LOL
    not-pboyfloyd at 12:01PM on Nov 5th 2008
    560. Me? Pray? Surely you jest...
    GearHedEd at 1:22PM on Nov 5th 2008
    561. So while I think you've got a pretty solid bead on reality, Floyd, there's been a lot of talk all over the country that indicates many people are believing exactly that--that somehow things are going to be immediately better just because it's November 5th and Barack won the election. Those folks are in for a disappointment.
    GearHedEd at 1:25PM on Nov 5th 2008
    562. On the other hand, I've been looking at the economy through Michigan-colored glasses, and it looked shitty here back in 2000, when my wife insisted that we had to move here. Thank GOD I'm not married to her anymore.

    (realizes the irony in that last statement)

    GearHedEd at 1:28PM on Nov 5th 2008
    563. See what I mean Ed. I don't imagine that insanity comes to people 'in the night'. More likely it creeps up on people over an extended period where some things will never change, always be just bonkers and others you begin to accept as reality slowly tipping your balance over, drip, drip, drip.

    At first you are confused, "Does this harpy from HELL, love me? Is this love? It's not what I 'bought'!"

    That kind of thing, the 'lemon' wife deal.

    I'm sorry but I can see the parallel between the Rep's logic, what they say they want and the Rep's actions, what the actually want and a harpy wife's.

    Fortunately we all don't go 'under' when a bad marriage does. Sadly, it is mostly the disillusioned guy.

    Can't you see the the Reps(necons) have been 'Godily' twiddling the supposed facts and figures in their favour for too long?

    Obama might be a charismatic 'Clintony'(without the Rep-base hatred) kind o' fella OR he might start SCARING people and there's a danger there too.
    not-pboyfloyd at 1:54PM on Nov 5th 2008
    564. .. and 'Godhelpus' if Obama gets caught with his dick in some 'chicky's' mouth or like that.

    Clinton's rep went in the can for everyone you know, he got 'let-off' for being such a charismatic man.

    We can only imagine how many suicides(really!) that Bush would have caused if he had gotten caught with a woman, or worse(wink)!

    'Coarse his wife would have probably chastized him, EXECUTION STYLE and, hey!, she might even have gotten away with it in the latter days.
    not-pboyfloyd at 2:01PM on Nov 5th 2008
    565. In any case, Floyd, I'm not messed up about the X. No "solution 451" for me (remember Botts' "True Love" post). I did get a "lemon" in that last one (well, all three were defective-just my luck. It seems I've accounted for the average in divorce rates among all my siblings single-handedly. Both brothers and my sister are all still married to their first spouse and vice versa...). We are all glad (meself and the kiddies) that she's gone.
    GearHedEd at 2:27PM on Nov 5th 2008

  47. Excerpt part three:

    566. It's been three and a half years now, and I'm still straightening out the credit situation, but it's manageable as long as I can stay employed.
    GearHedEd at 2:30PM on Nov 5th 2008
    567. I was married to a (as it turned out) woman who was totally, totally not in touch with reality.

    I think she had dreams of continuing our marriage, you know, when the boyfriend was 'fighting for his sanity'.

    She died though.(years back) That's all I gotta say about that.
    not-pboyfloyd at 2:37PM on Nov 5th 2008
    568. I kinda thought there might be a story back there.
    GearHedEd at 2:45PM on Nov 5th 2008
    569. 555. In other words, I'm still not convinced that things will magically get better just because there's a blue man in the White House.

    GearHedEd at 10:27AM on Nov 5th 2008


    they will get better because of abandonment of bad ideas and embracing good ones. Magic is the province of people like janeshophie. I don't see 'magic' in any shape or form, but I do see an extremely competent leader at the helm and millions of motivated people. I may be wrong, but I don't think I am. I don't and never could embrace supply side thinking. It's like believing in ghosts. I don't.
    Clif Kuplen at 3:30PM on Nov 5th 2008
    570. I truly hope you're right, Clif. I don't hate the Democratic party, I don't think Barack is a Muslim or a terrorist, etc. I'm not so gullible as that. Maybe "magically" wasn't the best choice of words (see #561). I just remember what this country (and especially Michigan) went through under Jimmy Carter, because I graduated High school in 1979. Maybe I just fear the change, and it's all in my head. I really hope Barack is all that his admirers say he is, and not the "empty suit" some have called him. It's important for me and my kids to be able to live in a peaceful, respected nation. If Barack delivers, I'll vote Democratic and never look back.
    GearHedEd at 3:45PM on Nov 5th 2008

  48. 571. Except if it's Hillary. She can go suck ass.

    GearHedEd at 3:50PM on Nov 5th 2008

  49. Does anyone think Hillary would have done better?

    I'm thinking, maybe yes. Not sure though. There's something about becoming president that seems to corrupt absolutely...

  50. Brian,

    I posted those comments to show that I expected this to go down this way three years ago.

    Nobody believed me then...

  51. Oh, I got that Ed...


    He promised hope and change, and now I'm hoping that he changes...

    Too bad, eh? I'm sorry that you were prescient. I was hoping... oh shit, that was what I was supposed to do, wasn't it? Just hope. He gave us that, at least, just before dashing it on the rocks of reality.

  52. Botts always said tha Obama was a chess-player. And I think that is true.

    The only problem is, the game is poker.

  53. Darn.. got the stupid disabled cookies thang again.

    Seem to get that if I write anything over 30 words on your blog, Brian.

    Short answer is raise the taxes back to where they were on the rich.

    Real solution, raise them higher. Get rid of this 'global corporation' bullshit, that's what's causing the problems in the first place.

    The right are fucking us over with this global corporation bullshit 'cos the only solution, if they're going to keep it up is their 'nightmare' World Government.

    So, just end it. Outlaw global corporations, problem solved, every corporation would be accountable to their 'country'.

  54. Oh yea, Jerry, I forgot to call BULLSHIT on what you were saying.

    If it were up to the rich they'd have us imagine that it is our duty to pay taxes for wars that benefit their corporations and line their pockets and they'd have told you 100 years ago that there will always be old, poor and sick people who 'we' can never afford to look after.

    The jury is not out on whether there can be universal health care, only if there can be universal health care in the USA!

    Can you see that subtle difference?

    Libertarianism is thinly disguised social-darwinism, yes THAT social-darwinism that the right pre-empt us blaming the left of by blaming us of it first.

    Damned 'think tanks' is all about coaching 'your' opinion to believe what they want you to, while they're all about the money.

    Money is their GOD but the budget is going to be constantly on the brink of disaster while the standard of living bottoms out with their 'boys and girls in office' shrug and point to yet another disasterous budget which they refuse to cough up for.

  55. Oh yea, Jerry, I forgot to call BULLSHIT on what you were saying.

    "If it were up to the rich they'd have us imagine that it is our duty to pay taxes for wars that benefit their corporations and line their pockets and they'd have told you 100 years ago that there will always be old, poor and sick people who 'we' can never afford to look after.

    The jury is not out on whether there can be universal health care, only if there can be universal health care in the USA!

    Can you see that subtle difference?"

    I assume that you are referring to what I said about not being able to afford total complete medical care for every citizen of the USA. I doubt if we can do that now let alone in the future. With new machines, new medication, and other rising cost we would be very lucky if the yearly rise in cost was less than 10% per year. How long do you think we can run the printing presses to handle that? Maybe you had better check on how much we are paying for medical care today for the whole country. It is hardly a subtle difference between the USA, and the whole world, are you just being a wise ass here? Universal health care for all the citizens of this country can be a fact IF we ration certain care, and do not try to give total care to all from cradle to grave.
    I finally understand how come you do not think we have free choice. You used your free choice to think there is no free choice, the results, you do not have free choice, your choice.

  56. I finally understand how come you do not think we have free choice. You used your free choice to think there is no free choice, the results, you do not have free choice, your choice.
    I find the whole question meaningless, actually. It sounds silly to even ask whether we have free choice or not. Who really cares other than a bunch of mouthbreathers trying to prove the existence of their god? The whole issue was invented to explain why god is so fucking cruel to us, to re-assure and counter people who LOGICALLY conclude that there can be no loving god because well, look the fuck around.

  57. Let's see if my comment is going to get lost first.

  58. To me the idea of connecting god and free choice is of no value.

  59. "Maybe you had better check on how much we are paying for medical care today for the whole country. It is hardly a subtle difference between the USA, and the whole world, are you just being a wise ass here?"

    You being 'affronted' about the cost of the health-care system as it is now is a diversion.

    You being 'affronted' that because that other countries DO have universal health care doesn't 'fit in' with your ideology doesn't make my comment 'wise-ass', it makes my comment TRUE.

    The truth is that the US. health care system is a for profit industry and funds are diverted from caring for people's health towards paying for CEOs bonuses and paying for stock dividends and so on.

    How can it be that some poor kid can't get a heart operation because a million guys are taking viagra at 6 dollars a pill, paid for by their insurance?

    Is their nightly boink worth more than the kid with a heart defect?

    The boat has sailed on this keeping the budget in check, 'cos your governments, both left and right have supported maintaining a huge army whose main purpose is to meddle in other countries supporting (now GLOBAL) corporations profits.

  60. I assume that you are referring to what I said about not being able to afford total complete medical care for every citizen of the USA. I doubt if we can do that now let alone in the future.
    There are few things about which I consider myself expert but this is one. It is now possible to achieve affordable universal healthcare of high quality that slashes existing expenditures from 30 -50 % in the moderate term. The issue is whether there is the political will and imagination to do it.

  61. pliny,
    I will take your word for knowing what you are talking about. I have to wonder if you are saying that is possible to do or realistic to do in the system we live in, realistic or not? I would be in favor of furnishing every person on the planet with the necessities of life, food, clothing, and shelter, and you can add health care, both mental, and physical but that is unrealistic to even think about.

    Part of the overall problem I think is, democracy automatically leads to mediocrity, and that we live with.

  62. pboy,

    I reread the post on April 18, 2011 1:55 AM ; and it still does not make sense. First you go of in some tirade about corporations, then you make a remark that I considered wise ass about me not being able to understand the difference between health care for all the world as opposed to health care for the USA. Calling that a subtle difference is ridiculous. Then your dribble goes off into liberties and think tanks. The latest is you say I am affronted by something....... affront, according to Webster is; a deliberate act or display of disrespect; insult. When someone shows me the basic disrespect as a fellow human being doing life on planet earth I feel sad, not affronted. (the sadness is for them that cannot find enough love in their lives to feel the basic love and respect for their fellow man regardless of whom or what they are)

  63. You had to go back and reread and criticize other things I was saying Jerry?

    Seems a bit disingenuous to me.

    You have to qualify what you're saying, 'in our present system', to Pliny, to make yourself 'not wrong'?

    Seems a bit disingenuous to me.

    Forget it Jerry.

    I'm watching the hilarious news about 'the Donald' now, and sure enough Sarah Palin comes on and says, "Craw craw CRAWW!", then, "SCRAAA!"


    What the HELL is wrong with that bitch? If she gets her way, she'll go a long way to reversing women's rights and disqualify HERSELF from holding political office.


  64. pboyfloyd said...

    You had to go back and reread and criticize other things I was saying Jerry?

    Seems a bit disingenuous to me.

    You have to qualify what you're saying, 'in our present system', to Pliny, to make yourself 'not wrong'?

    Seems a bit disingenuous to me.

    Forget it Jerry.

    I think forgetting it would be a good idea. You have mentioned in the past we seem to talk by each other. Probably true. I am an abstract thinker, I have been called different to weird so that is probably the problem. Freedom is a thing in the abstract, and I do not think you would consider it so. So we have a problem communicating.

  65. That is so fucking annoying when I write a comment and it tells me that my cookies have been disabled.

    Don't know how that happens but it is a giant pain.

  66. Jerry - I agree that's an important distinction, but I do mean that it is a practical option in this case. Not that the political barriers aren't significant.

  67. pboy,
    don't know if it would help but sometimes I get different, and better results using Mozilla, over AOL.

  68. pliny,
    Can you give me a rough idea how to save that kind of money. I hope you do not get to detailed as I probably cannot understand much about details in medicine and the cost. I understand that now we are spending over 16% of GDP which is projected to go to about 20% in about 6 years. While it looks like our health care is lagging some other countries I would think obesity is causing quit a bit of the disparity. Several years ago I wrote a plan to use in the prison system. I sent it to 24 different governors that were due for election. I got about 8 answers in all, and most said they were going to privatization. I did read about a couple of the ideas were used. but I would imagine they could have come from anywhere. I am glad for the two, but the main idea was not even acknowledged. I do not feel to discouraged because good ideas take time to ferment in the society before they are used. I hope if you have a good idea you will pursue exposing it.

  69. Jerry I can give you an overview of what we are talking about. Give me a couple of days and I'll post a response that is relevant.

  70. Pliny,
    Thanks, do appreciate you doing that. The main idea with the prison thing is that when we lock up a person they loose his/her physical freedom, and get the bare essentials. Most prisoners would get a change to get in a volunteer program that allows a prisoner to work at a job to earn money, and a trade, and have more than the bare essentials. They are to be paid the going rate for trade they get into, and pay some room and board, plus child support, income tax etc. The cost of imprisoning a person would be cut at least in half, and recidivism would be cut to a much lower %.

  71. You really wanna solve the prison problem in the US Jerry?

    Legalize pot and eliminate prison sentences for harder drugs, and instead send those arrested for them into enforced treatment programs that include psychological counseling, a support system, and job training and integration into the mainstream of society somehow.

    Problem solved, dude.

  72. Incidentally, that would also destroy the mexican drug cartels like no military or police action ever could. No demand, no profit in supplying it. No money...

    This is how the gangsters like Capone thrived, on a substance prohibition, and that's how the 'need' for them was eliminated.... crime went way down after prohibition was repealed.

  73. Imagine if pot were legal. No real reason for it not to be. We allknow how much more dangerous alcohol is both societally and on a personal level and even toxicologically. If you drink too much at once it can effing kill you dead.
    If it were legal, street crime would even drop precipitously. Wow.

  74. Guess it boils down to ideology.

    Can't legalize pot, because it's illegal.

    Can't balance the budget because it's necessary to flatten out and/or eliminate taxes for corporations and the wealthy.

    Can't have universal health care because the wealthy deserve the best treatment first, then so on down the ladder of fortune until we get to the poor, who don't deserve anything at all.

  75. Oh yea, thanks for tryin' to help with the comment failure to upload issue.

    I'm back to copying my comment before I try to publish. Seems to help.

  76. Hell the Marines didn't torture Bradley Manning at all, they just 'blew it' when it came to not torturing him!


  77. "Incidentally, that would also destroy the mexican drug cartels like no military or police action ever could. No demand, no profit in supplying it. No money..."

    and all the people say, "Amen!" Preach on Godless!

  78. Yeah, but you're the choir, aren't you all?

    You're pretty sensible people, more so than I am sometimes...

    I love the idea of this country, you know. It pains me to see it on the wane. It really hurts. And they laugh as they burn rome...

  79. Guess it boils down to ideology.
    Why yes.

    Isn't that the same thing as when I talk about how the problem lies in those who believe, are belief-based, rather than fact-based?

  80. When I hear someone say 'it boils down to ideology' I think it is misleading. It really boils down to ideology VERSUS detached unideological logic and reason. Their ideology, their non-reality-based-beliefs, versus our reliance on observation of actual consensual reality in constructing our personal worldviews.
    They believe heresay; we don't.

  81. Hilary Clinton on Drug Prohibition .

    The only real question I have: Who would we rather give or money to? Couldn't we the shit Like we do booze and ciggies ? How much could we stand to make of the stoners? I'm betting a bunch.