I love Pope Francis. Yes, I know, I'm the one that always raves against religion in general and Christianity in particular, but I love this man. He may have his flaws, and I'm sure that he does, but he is one man that has a lot of things right where other religious people have it wrong, and he's not afraid to tell them.
It's about humility. It's about serving others, not yourself. It's about love.
Newsflash! It's not the easy path.
So here's one thing that the new Pope said recently that I *wish* that I'd thought of saying years ago to some of the Christians that have visited here in years past, or just out there in the world in general. I wish I'd thought of posting it to message boards and News Blogs and such.
It's so simple, and so obvious, that I truly think that it might actually get through to some of them.
The exact quote is this:
"If one has the answers to all the questions, that is the proof that God is not with him"
I am stunned by the brilliance of that sentence.
I only wish that it might get through to some of them. To some of those who call themselves Christians and yet somehow have lost their way, have stumbled, have become blinded to the best part of the message.
Can you not hear the ring of truth in it? Are ye deaf as well as blind?
"If one has the answers to all the questions, that is the proof that God is not with him"
Brian:
ReplyDeleteEven those of us who are atheists must admit that we don't have all of them either. We can only say that we have not found any shred of evidence that God exists and, as a result, can see no logic or benefit to anyone to pretend ("believe") that He/She/It requires any of our attention or adherence to any religion. If the current Pontiff really means what you have quoted, it is hard to understand how or why he still retains his "faith" and chooses to serve in this capacity.
If the current Pontiff really means what you have quoted, it is hard to understand how or why he still retains his "faith" and chooses to serve in this capacity.
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I don't see what you mean. Why would his faith be affected by not having all the answers? I don't get that part.
I mean, he's certainly admitting to not having all the answers. I could see your point if he weren't.
DeleteIf even the Pontiff doesn't have "all the answers", given his alledged infallibility as God's representative on earth and his perfect "faith", who does? Perfect faith ought to answer every question.
DeleteAh. I think he was talking about humility.
DeleteAre we talking about all the answers about whether God exists or all the answers about the social and political issues? I was taking him to mean the latter and not the former. That's what he was talking about. However, let's say it was the former. If so, he just admitted that he doesn't have all the answers to whether god exists, and you see that as problematic because he *should?* Id say he *seems* to be a genuinely humble man, and that's all I really care about. I mean, we're not about to get all christians to realize that their god is not real, but we might over time get them to at least not be total hypocrites even within the bounds of their faith and follow the good words of Jesus, such as they are.
DeleteI guess I didn't get the context of his statement. He has always made "humility" his mantra. I doubt that he would care to admit (as did Mother Theresa, rather famously) that his "faith" had any holes in it.
Delete" It's about serving others."
ReplyDeleteIt's a cook book people!!!
ARRGGGH!
LOL! Leave it to you to think of that old SF movie.
ReplyDeleteFrancis is a figure-head setting a tone. Not sure how much actual influence he has on his immediate underlings and how much influence they have on theirs, and so on.
ReplyDeleteSeems to me the tone was set and was out there for all to see when M.I. was commenting. She had given us some clues that she was at the bottom of that ladder and it was the idea that she was on the ladder at all that kept her on that ideological 'straight-and-narrow'.
The lowliest zealot finds solace in sticking to the party-line. She might be on the bottom, but, in her mind, she was miles above us.
Question is, how much influence does 'a Francis' have on 'an M.I.' or a 'D'Souza' or 'a Ryan'?
ReplyDeleteOkay, first of all, he's acting like Jesus, so he's not being a hypocrite, and he focuses on the poor and so forth. Wants less of the social agenda and more humility and kindness. Obviously I don't agree with his theology, but as long as his focus is in the right place, who cares? Obviously an MI or a DaSouza will not give a shit, but run-of-the-mill catholics tend to pay attention to what the pope says, so I guarantee you that some people are listening. The far right looks bad when it goes against him, not because he's the pope but because it's the right message.
ReplyDeleteHes a new player on the field. A new and powerful voice for change. And I like that.
Francis is a figure-head setting a tone.
ReplyDelete-So is Rush Limbaugh, and look at the harm he does just by being that.
Okay fellow atheists, which is the stronger position? To argue against christians about whether their faith is true or false, or about whether they're following the teachings of it? Since they're not, and it's fairly provable, I'd say the latter position has a much better chance of success, and it accomplishes the purpose.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=wormholes-quantum-entanglement-link
ReplyDeletehttps://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/1472768_696626117021805_668578312_n.jpg
ReplyDeleteBy the way, where the hell have you been?
DeleteInteresting pic there, Meta... hope it's not true, but it well may be.
ReplyDeleteHey, at least he's putting a spotlight on the concept of 'love thy neighbor' and other Jesusy stuff.
GAKK! I'm going back and forth with the kind of bozo who proudly proclaims the 400 plus prophecies which foretell Jesus' Coming.
ReplyDeleteWhat a load of bollocks.
Brian, I know very little about the pope or his actions, Ill have to take your word as to the type of person he is. My time has been limited due to my wife’s surgery and her need of my care. However, I enjoy conversing with you all and hope to be more frequent very soon.
ReplyDeleteJude had some very interesting remarks on God’s plan for mankind and His redemption for sin that man was created in. I hope to address those comets in a day or two.
Hi Ian, I am most interested in your opinion on this matter because of your unique ability to dissect every word
Brian said,
ReplyDeleteOkay fellow atheists, which is the stronger position? To argue against christians about whether their faith is true or false, or about whether they're following the teachings of it? Since they're not, and it's fairly provable, I'd say the latter position has a much better chance of success, and it accomplishes the purpose.
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Actually Brian one’s dedication to the teachings or practice of a pictular faith does not validate the truth or falsehood of any belief. It simply shows ones character is flawed.
comments
ReplyDeleteWhat is "pictular faith?"
ReplyDeleteI'm not trying to invalidate anybody's faith anymore. I'm trying to get you guys to realize that you don't follow Jesus Christ very well at all. If you can all do as he did, walk his walk, that would be enough for me. Concentrate on loving others, all others, you do not get to pick.... and on the poor and downtrodden... and stop saying you're Christians and voting for MAMMON.
"Particular"
DeleteI think that was it.
Well, Mike, I'd say that there's no question you have faith in the supernatural, it is true that you have such faith.
ReplyDeleteBerating Christians about whether they are following the teachings? Well, Christians have a couple of outs here. They might point out that everyone is a sinner ergo, no one measures up.
To me this is like the South Park episode where Stan's dad goes to A.A. and they tell him he has a disease. He takes it to heart and decides he cannot drink responsibly because, after all, he is ill, he's sick, he cannot help himself.
Christians have a similar deal where, when one points out the hypocrisy inherent in the 'system' of Christianity. Christians can and do do wrong, but they can be forgiven by their local hierarchy(their real equivalent of being forgiven by GOD).
If a self-identified Christian goes around doing such unforgivable actions(sins) that everyone finds their actions heinous to the extreme, genocide or such, other Christians can simply disown him/her as not a 'true Christian' and there's an easy out, that person just doesn't count.
It's like a study in rationalization really, isn't it?
I wonder how you feel about your wife's illness? Is it God's Will? Do you have adequate health insurance, are you getting her the best scientifically-based medical treatment that money can buy?
Her illness, is it something the doctors are telling you that she has a chance of overcoming and are these odds good or no?
I'd like to say that my heart goes out to you in your time of distress here and I wish you and your wife all the luck in the world, I hope she recovers completely of course, but if that's not in the cards, at least that she can recover to the point where you and her can enjoy some time together where she isn't uncomfortable or in too much pain.
If your faith in the supernatural gives you hope and comfort at this time, I for one cannot imagine anyone trying to take that away from you.
This is not so much a reply to Ian as some further thoughts on his comment.
DeleteAs we have all noted before, simple faith or belief in a Deity is rarely in and of itself harmful, as long as it does not extend to that belief being imposed upon others against their will. The one area in which, it seems to me, faith can be hugely helpful, is when it provides emotional support in times of great trouble to one's loved ones. As a surgeon who has dealt with cancer and its terrible effects upon patients and their families, it has become abundantly apparent that those who have deep and sincere religious beliefs often get through such trying times much better than those without such faith. I must admit that I have, at times, used terms that would suggest to these people that I support their beliefs, eben though I certainly do not share them.
Berating Christians about whether they are following the teachings? Well, Christians have a couple of outs here. They might point out that everyone is a sinner ergo, no one measures up.
ReplyDelete-----------------------
Nah, I think the answer would more likely be a re-definition of Jesus to suit them. I mean, I've gotten that before.
So "Jesus doesn't want us to take money from others to give it to the poor, he never said anything about re-distribution of wealth" as if that's anything close to the truth.
That sort of thing.
"They might point out that everyone is a sinner ergo, no one measures up."
DeleteThe reason that I don't see them going this way, is that while they will always admit that "everybody's a sinner" they never, ever admit to being one personally, except in the abstract like that. If I accuse them of not following Christ, admitting that they are a sinner would be the same as admitting that I am right about them not following Christ.
It's like whenever I've pointed out how in the Bible God doesn't say that any one sin is worse than any other one. So I point that out in the context of being gay, say to them 'so let's say it is a sin, even if so, are you saying that you are without sin?'
They never admit there's anything to what I say when I say that. Bob and weave, dodge and lie. Fact is, they are simply childishly grossed out by the gay thing, and so on the basis of their gut revulsion, they ASSume that god must hate them too.
Or of course a re-definition of the points of Jesus' stories, such as "Hey, the 'eye of a needle' was a kind of small gate that rich people went through, so the point of that story wasn't that there's anything wrong with being rich!"
ReplyDeleteI know, to us that sounds as retarded as eating poop, but there you have it.
I see that I used to forbidden "R" word there.
DeleteIt's okay, I have a license. I was grandfathered in.
Mike, you say you don't know much about the new Pope?
ReplyDeleteAre you living in a cave? Or is it that the nonCatholic people that hate everybody else also hate Catholics so much that you intentionally do not listen to anything about them?
I find it very funny, very funny indeed, that the Protestants (like you for instance) originally "protested" against the Church all those years ago for caring too much about money, and not adhering to the words of Jesus Christ, and now they seem a bit better lately, but you guys have taken their place.... lol... too funny....
I heard that US christians even hate phagocytosis because it sounds so gay....
ReplyDeletehttp://www.dailykos.com/
ReplyDeleteCan anybody tell me why the Daily Kos' comments on their pieces are so fucked up? Are they all from Twitter or something? You can't even read them, and there's no way to put a new one in, so I'm guessing Twitter.
Since HP went all weird on me I've been looking for another political site to comment on, thought the DK might be good... but WTF?
Is America utterly illiterate now?
Ian, you hit the nail on the head. The fact is no one measures up.... The problem that all Christians face is the Adam nature....also known as the sinful nature that still exist in a person even after they have been born again. I know you will label this as an escape clause or get out of jail free card but it is a fact of Christianity. When God saves a persons soul it is the soul itself that is made holy and it is sealed with the Holy Spirit that it cannot sin. The Adam nature also referred to as the flesh will be tempted to sin.
ReplyDeleteYou have an example in Jesus that you do not follow, and you use the excuse that it's the Adam nature.
ReplyDeleteApparently you have no problem following Adam.
If you call yourself a Christian, shouldn't you at least try? I mean, a lot of you guys don't even pretend to follow Jesus. If you did, you'd be loving kind people that didn't HATE EVERYBODY ELSE.
And is it so hard not to vote for evil people that want to destroy the poor and the country? Is that so fucking hard, Mike?
So you can forgive yourself anything because hey, it's the adam nature thing, so no worries. Nice way to not follow Christ but still believe you're a christian.
ReplyDeleteSorry Mike... it's hard for me to not be upset. I have eyes to see, damn it.
ReplyDeleteWhat about those who do the bad things, like the tea party for instance, and never ever for one second think that they're going against Christ?
ReplyDeleteAdam nature again?
Adam sinned, but he wasn't a hypocrite about it too.
Clam down Brian! I try everyday to live a Christian life, yet I still fall short because of the Adsm nature. You have often accused me and other Christians of not loving others as Christ loved. The problem here Brian is you think "Love" means there is no right or wrong and whatever goes goes. That's the feeling I get from you anyway.
ReplyDeleteJudge not... except that you always do, because it's just too much fun not to.
DeleteI don't hate as you would suggest. There are things people do that I am not in favor of and I express my opinion about it as you.
ReplyDeleteWhich is very similar to hating the people themselves.
DeleteFrankly, I do not believe you. You (or rather, rightwing christians in general) do hate gays and atheists and everybody that you claim not to hate. It shows. It's very obvious hatred, right there on the surface.
The Adam nature is not an excuse its a fact of life. Just trying to help you understand that Christians are not perfect just forgiven.
ReplyDeleteIn those words, I see a depth of egotism that is impossible for me to begin to fathom. And you're utterly unaware of it, and would deny it to your grave, but there it is, plain as life.
DeleteI dunno Mike. From where I sit, I can see a lot of things about evangelical christians that they are blissfully unaware of about themselves. They have very large areas of blindness, both about themselves and the world in general. This is due to the fact that they are not capable of realizing that faith is just another word for blind gullible belief.
ReplyDeleteQuestion everything, especially yourself.
The truly evil man, is the man that is capable of doing evil in the wholehearted, absolute belief that he is instead doing good.
Think about it.
You say I hate Gay people… Well Brian that couldn’t be farther from the truth.
ReplyDeleteThe thing about homosexuality is this. It is a sign of the end times. It was what brought the end to the people in Sodom and Gomorrah and Jesus said that as it was in the days of Sodom and Gomorrah so shall it be in the days of the coming of the son of man. It is a sign that the end of the world is near. My wife and I watch Ellen all the time, She is a wonderful person. Brian don’t assume to know how I fell about others just because I believe the homosexual life style is wrong. That doesn’t feel like hate to me. I don’t like Pepsi colas at all…. Does that mean you will accuse me of hating them as well?
I’m just trying to be honest here Brian, Not egotistical .
ReplyDeleteYou are honestly an egotist then, only in your supposed honesty you forgot to be honest with yourself.
DeleteMike:
ReplyDeleteThere have been many previous periods in history when homosexuality was not only much more widespread than it is now, but during which it was widely accepted by the populace in general (Rome at its height, the courts of France during the Renaissance, to name a few). How is it that "the End Times" have not already occurred? You might point out that these cultures/empires have all "been put asunder", but the World has certainly not ended quite yet. Besides, if you are expecting the Second Coming any time soon, you should rejoice that Jesus' prophecies appear to be on the horizon. In any event, your personal "preparations" for this aside, your constant need to proselytize others only points out that you have your own doubts about this and need to get as many of us as possible to agree with your take on things. Hosanna and Amen!!
Harvey, Thanks for your comment but once again you are wrong. I do not need nor do I seek validation from man any man to confirm my faith in God for God Himself has already assured me of His existence and the faith He gave me to believe in Him was sufficient to secure my soul. However Harvey I do believe you visit atheist blogs to confirm your non belief.... Sorta helps you through the troublesome thoughts that abide in your soul especially when you are all alone. Not to worry Harvey you'll know soon enough. And by the way homosexuality has never been worldwide as it is today.
ReplyDeleteHowever Harvey I do believe you visit atheist blogs to confirm your non belief
ReplyDelete--------------------------
Where are you getting this dog poop, Mike? Who tells you this drek?
Mike, you are such a silly goof. I'd forgotten how you can "inform" us of your "facts" with such conviction like that.
ReplyDeleteAnd by the way homosexuality has never been worldwide as it is today.
ReplyDelete----------------
OOH, let me play too!
Ahem:
"And by the way, the Spartans were just great friends..."
"And by the way, Jesus Christ personally started World War II..."
"And by the way, turtles are a cross between lizards and rocks..."
Fun!
Who told you that? Who lied to you so that you believed it? Someone who was a believer obviously, because you believe all their lies all the time.And you love to believe the lies that confirm your already-biased beliefs.
I have to stop talking to Mike, I guess. I'll let others answer. It's not that it's infuriating me, although it is a little... it's just that it makes me so fucking sad for humanity, so disappointed in humans... they're really so pliable... so easily misled... so fucking gullible... Damn. That's fucking depressing.
ReplyDeleteSo Mike, why is it that you think that God could not simply assure us of His existence, then give us the faith He gave you to believe in Him, which would be sufficient to secure our souls TOO?
ReplyDeleteDoesn't seem fair to me.
ReplyDeleteMike, you truly have all the answers.
ReplyDeleteOnly one problem with that:
"If one has the answers to all the questions, that is the proof that God is not with him"
Oh, SNAP!
Delete"Today’s Christian reader learns what Jesus did by reading the gospels; his ancient counterpart learned what Jesus did by reading Joshua and 1 Kings. It was not a question of memory but of creative exegesis. Sometimes the signals that made particular scriptural texts attractive for this purpose are evident (like “my son” in Hosea 11:1), sometimes not."
ReplyDelete-http://www.robertmprice.mindve/...
I think the Gospels are clearly motivated by the times these people lived in, having been Helenized for hundreds of years then brought under the yoke of Pax Romana.
Neither the Greeks nor the Romans were about to be swayed by Jewish Philosophy, but, Philo had 'solved' this with his attempt to integrate it with Greek Philosophy, which the Romans were, it seems, quite happy with.
Start with a good protagonist, The Savior of the Branch, (Jesus the Nazarene), who saves the entire Jewish Philosophy and their Sacred Writings.
Why does the climax of the story need a physical resurrection?
"Much of Plato’s views on the soul’s immortality can be found in his Republic.
He starts with the concept of reward and punishment, developing it into his concept of specific evils.
Plato was a thinker of his time and therefore understands immortality in terms of reincarnation (literally to be made flesh again).
The ancient Greeks believed that the soul about to be reincarnated drank from the river Lethe (forgetfulness) which explained why people have no recollection of their previous life.
Much of Plato’s teaching is put across through his account of his teacher Socrates. It is therefore difficult to say where Plato’s own teaching starts and Socrates ends."
Apparently it ends where Christians give their last nod to it, the sacrifice and resurrection of The Saviou
Also, were there not gods already in existence at the time, being worshiped, that died and came back? I think I've read about such a thing.. Tammuz and Mithras perhaps?
DeleteI always find it amusing how atheists always argue above the heads of the believers. I mean, here you are talking about Philo when the average believer thinks it's a flaky pastry crust.
ReplyDeleteWe are always thinking that some fact will sway the other side, when they are not only immune to all facts, but even contemptuous of them.
We argue, they pontificate and condescend and proselytize. It's like a great debate between a computer and a puppy.
I mean, how do you combat this sort of thing:
ReplyDelete"Christians are not perfect just forgiven"
The level of egotism is nearly astronomical. When you belong to the 'forgiven' club, after a while you start to feel that anything that you want to do is sanctioned by God Himself. You no longer bother asking yourself whether you're right or not; why bother? It's one of those pat answers that are impenetrable to all logic.
Purina Ego Chow. And boy how they love it.
"It's okay when I sin because I am forgiven, but when you do it, it's really bad because hey, you're not."
ReplyDelete...becomes...
"God loves me so he forgives me but he hates you so you're not"
...becomes...
"I hate you because you sin and I don't like your sins, but when I sin they don't matter because God doesn't mind my sins"
And so forth...
Any belief system that teaches people to feel superior to others not in the same belief system, makes them feel special and More Godly and More Holy than others, is fucking evil. Period. It's a shallow, transparent appeal to the ego. And ask Mike how well it works, how good it feels. It's that 'feeling good' part that is evil, because you're feeling good because you think you're better than everybody else, because hey, 'God says so, so shut up.'
ReplyDeleteThat's why I like this Pope. He stresses humility. WOW! What a concept!
ReplyDeleteAnd not the usual "I am so very humble because I'm really a very holy person that is chosen by God because I'm so good and just and kind and humble" typical kind of christian humility.
Humility as in, "not believing that you're better than anybody else just because you're a christian" kind of humility.
The protestants hate it so much that they don't even admit that they've heard it. "Pope? What Pope? I'm not familiar with this Pope thing..."
Or, said another way, "Brian, I know very little about the pope or his actions, Ill have to take your word as to the type of person he is."
DeleteHere's another good one:
ReplyDelete"When God saves a persons soul it is the soul itself that is made holy and it is sealed with the Holy Spirit that it cannot sin."
License to do any heinous shit that your dark side feels like doing much?
Well, they're always saying that they're studying the Bible and all, so faced with all the equivalent happenings in both, sure they can say, "It is because it was prophesied!"
ReplyDeleteBut saying that Mary, Joseph and baby Jesus had to get out of Judea and go to Egypt, because it is prophesied that, 'He will come out of Egypt', is backwards.
How is running away to Egypt fulfilling a prophecy to 'come out of Egypt?
Okay, if your answer is, 'Well, he had to come back, nya, nya!", Then, when he came back, that was a fulfillment of his prophecy.
Jesus is the New Moses, the branch of Judahism that promoted him scoured the Old Scriptures to tie them to the N.T. by 'comparison shopping'.
Why did Jesus have to leave?? Some king was going to kill all first-born babies.
Why did Moses have to be hidden in a basket made of reeds, because some king (Pharaoh) was going to have all the first-born killed.
This kind of parallel is all over the N.T. but they change the names, change the order, sometimes the opposite thing happens, not just 'something different' but the exact opposite thing.
If you wonder why Jesus is doing something in the stories, read:-
http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/art_midrash1.htm
If you're wondering why Christian apologists slough of Philo and his LOGOS, telling us that there was some vague 'earlier source'.
ReplyDeletePhilo got it from:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logos#Ancient_Greek_philosophy,
from Heraclitus ( c. 535 – c. 475 BCE ) a Greek philosopher.
The N.T. is certainly a mix of Jewish and Greek philosophy, it's a rehash of the story of Moses (with his lieutenant Joshua(who happens to equal 'SAVIOR') plus Greek mythology.
There's the feeding miracles which parallel Moses' feeding miracles, the walking on water which parallels Moses walking across the Red Sea, and on and on.
Some get referenced to the original Old Scripture stuff, some just doesn't, some get rearranged a bit. Just exactly like Midrash, exactly.
Mike, you no doubt study the Bible since you're a Christian. I think you just study the parts where you get to say, 'atheism is wrong, I've studied all the parts which say atheism is wrong, so HAH!'
ReplyDeleteBut if you truly study it, study what the Gospel writers themselves are telling you, they're actually saying that they're giving the old scriptures a fresh look, a look more in line with Greek Philosophy and kind of harmonization of philosophies.
It's not a collection of reports from the local population remembering bits here and there and being compiled into a true account of what happened.
If there is 'truth' to it, it's the same kind of 'truth' which can be gleaned from Old Scriptures, retold, updated and adjusted.
"But if you truly study it, study what the Gospel writers themselves are telling you"
ReplyDeleteIn other words, Mike, if you only would think instead of blindly believe...
There's a snowball sitting in hell right now because of your asking him that, Pboy.
Why, I'd even go so far as to bet that Mike and most evangelicals believe that the authors of the four gospels were actually Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, the four apostles themselves. Doesn't matter that we can prove that they weren't. What's proof but a kind of fact? And what's a fact when compared to a belief? Nothing.
ReplyDeleteBrian, why are you a hater? Really? I told you the truth..... I do not know much about the pope except for the fact he's catholic. I don't listen to his speeches or his sermons period.
ReplyDeleteBrian, its never been proven the gospels were not written by MMLJ, a few scholars with out any evidence at all has taken it upon themselves to make such a ridiculous claim.
ReplyDeleteAnother interesting fact , the reason no one can find the Q is because the Q or source is actually the Holy Spirit.... That is the reason the gospels are in harmony and Mat, Luke, and John have more info than Mark.
ReplyDeleteYou do not accept evidence that is contrary to your beliefs, so who are you to even talk?
ReplyDeleteThe authors of the gospels were definitely NOT the four apostles that the gospels were named after. This is known. The only people that deny it, are the same ones that deny science, logic, and reason. You and your friends.
See Pboy? How are you ever going to get through this mind shield?
Mike, I don't hate you, but I do hate your sin. (Sound familiar?)
What I mean is, you seem a nice person, not evil. However your beliefs are actually evil. So evil that they convince you, through your ego, that they and you are good, even the highest type of good. That's why they're evil. Because they hurt others, and that's not right, that's not goodness, and that's certainly not holy in any way.
You love being known as a christian, because in your mind that's good. Christianity tells you you're special, forgiven, holy even. Sure you say the words and "admit" that you're a sinner, but that's just mouthings. You mouth the words because you know you're supposed to. You never think about what they mean. If you are a sinner, you're no better than anybody else. Period. But you love your pedestal that your religion puts you on in your mind. Why, if you weren't so special, you'd be just like everybody else, and you can't stand that idea, can you?
Ironically you are against everything Jesus ever stood for, but in your pride, you see it as the opposite. You and your friends re-make Jesus in your own image, and if that's not a sin, nothing in your faith is.
Forgiven, huh? Not by me, and not by those who you hurt with your words and actions. So what if your god forgives you for something that you do unto us, and not unto him?
You're no better than anybody else. Not special. In fact, you've lived your life convinced that your faith is all you need, so you've neglected your MIND totally. You have little knowledge of the world. You don't even want it. You spurn knowledge for faith. You've been had.
The Q document is nothing more then a theory of man. Another factoid
ReplyDeleteYour whole religion is a fiction that you believe is fact.
DeleteYour brain has been compromised like a computer with a virus.
Incidentally, I have no idea what the "Q" document is. No doubt something on your side that you all latch onto like you do Richard Dawkins, believing it important to us. I just know that the gospel authors lived between forty and a hundred years after Jesus died and they wrote the gospels named after the apostles. They were not the actual apostles. But please hold onto another false belief just because it bolsters your ridiculous case. No skin off my nose, not anymore. Hey, I'm already convinced that there's no convincing a believer of anything they don't want to believe. They've convinced themselves that they're everything they're not, so that they didn't have to go through all the trouble of actually being those things. You're not good, you're not smart, you're not even nice people, but since you BELIEVE that you're all those things and more, it's all good to you.
DeleteMike, you don't even know that "without" is one word, but you're an authority on the veracity of the gospels.
ReplyDeleteYou're a kid, Mike. A kid. All ego and no substance. Sorry, but that's the truth, even if it hurts. But it won't hurt, because you won't believe me. You're programmed not to, like an IPad with a glitch.
Finally, now we are connecting. That is my point? I am no better then anyone else and everyone else is loved and wanted by the same God that wanted me and loves me. Am I better off then others because I am a Christian? No, I'm not.... Not in this world.
ReplyDeleteBut in the NEXT WORLD, you're so very special, right Mike? So special.. why, I bet they have special thrones for you to sit on.
DeleteHey, if you guys are really going to be happy in heaven, there must be big flat screen TVs all over the place showing us unforgiven sinners writhing in our agony in eternal torment in hell, because without schadenfreude you guys have few real pleasures.
The most petty, shallow, sinful man, is the one that believes in his heart that he is better than others. Your religion is a mental computer virus that operates on your PRIDE and amplifies it to the point where you're just an obnoxious boor.
It may come as a surprise to you, but believing that you're special in the next life is the same thing as believing that you're special in this one. It's still all about shallow Pride, the deadly sin that your side thinks is a sacrament.
DeleteLet me phrase this in another way...
ReplyDeleteMike, how dare you come here and say that you're forgiven and therefore you're special in your mind? Did you think a rampant display of pure egotism would charm us? All that means is that, while you will still sin as do we all, in your mind it's no harm, no foul. You have a 'get out of sin card' and we peons don't.
Disgusting. Grow up.
For all you know Mike, the actual Holy Spirit is working through me and not you, trying to get you to see the error of your ways... but the devil of Pride is too strong in you.
ReplyDeleteI am no better then anyone else and everyone else is loved and wanted by the same God that wanted me and loves me.
ReplyDelete------------------
Yet you still feel qualified to judge the sins of others. How is that? How does that work exactly?
For all you know, the devil has misled you through your pride, and all that I say is true. But you can't even consider that possibility. Why is that?
Pride works that way. That's why it's the worst of the Seven Deadly Sins. It's the only one that blinds a man to himself, and once that happens, the other six don't look bad anymore. In your Pride you will commit them and believe them to be graces and not sins.
Mike, I do like it when you visit here. I know I'm hard on you, but it's out of love. I'd love it if you were more loving and less Proud. Your beliefs stand in the way of that, though.
ReplyDeleteWhy do I get emotional when I talk to you? Why do I seem to always attack you? Perhaps you think it's because we atheists are such bad people and automatically attack the goodness of your faith.
It may surprise you then to know that when I talk to you, it's like I am able to talk to Satan. That is because you are committing the huge sin of believing that you are not sinning, all the time. It shows in your every word. Talking to you is like trying to convince Satan to be a good guy. If only, huh? That's why I get emotional. Your evil confounds me at every turn, even more so because you are completely unaware of it, and believe it to be goodness. Frustrating much!?
I've asked you this before, but I'll ask it again. What if? What if, Mike? What if the devil, being incredibly good at deceiving people, decided to do it through religion? Wouldn't that be a logical place for him to strike at? Would not the Father of Lies think of that? How do you know that you are not following a false faith, and that your 're-birth in Christ' was not just Satan's gambit, his appeal to your Pride? Because if you tell me that you are not proud to be born-again, I will call you a liar.
ReplyDeleteYou are not following Jesus Christ Mike. Jesus was a liberal, even a socialist. He didn't like to preach in temples, either... he was more of an 'open air' kind of guy. He despised people that loved money, and made friends among social outcasts. He partied, drank wine a lot and said that which we do to the least of people is what we do to him. He cared about the poor, and the downtrodden, and would have certainly looked very highly upon a society that fed it's hungry and didn't let them starve in the streets. He is everything that you and your evangelical friends are not. In your Huge Pride though, somehow you morph him into a republican. Does he wear a business suit now, Mike? Did he vote with Paul Ryan for a budget that destroys social security and leaves the sick to fend for themselves, Mike?
ReplyDelete"I love the evil man who knows that he is evil more than the righteous man that knows he is righteous. Of the evil people that consider themselves righteous, however, the following is said: "They do not even turn away at the threshold of the underworld." For they imagine that they are being led to hell in order to redeem the souls there.
ReplyDelete-Tales of the Chassidim
Of the evil people that consider themselves righteous, however... (Those are the far right wing christians, Mike)
But of course, you never doubt yourself. That is because, after all, you have all the answers, don't you Mike? Conveniently, you have all the answers.
ReplyDelete"If one has the answers to all the questions, that is the proof that God is not with him"
Okay, I'm done. Sorry to hurt you, but I'm pretty sure that you already didn't have a very high opinion of anybody not in your special ego club. It shows in your words and deeds. Your fruits are spoiled.
ReplyDeleteBoy, I do get going sometimes, don't I? Sorry.
ReplyDeleteBrian, you didn't hurt me.Why you exhibit such rage towards your fellow man is a mystery to me. Your words say you love others and in the same thought process your words are bitter and judgemental. Are you confused about what real love is?
ReplyDeleteI'm not full of pride Brian, there's no exhibition of pride in my words. I'm truly greatful that God saved my soul. It's my greatest desire to live a Christian life that God might say to me well done thou faithful servant. But that is my ambition, not pride....
ReplyDeleteYou ask me how do I know that the devil is the one who is guiding me instead of God. Well it's very simple.... Jesus said my sheep know my voice and a stranger they will not follow. The devil is the stranger.
ReplyDeleteLastly Brian, it is very easy to estimate when the Gospels were written when you examine the evidence found in the scriptures. Jesus told his disciples that the temple would be thrown down without one stone left upon another. Wel this actually happened in A D 70 by the Romans. If it had taken place after AD 70 then Luke would have wrote about it because he was a historian to both the Christians and the Jews. So you see it was more than possible for the Gospels to be written by them whose names are found there upon.
ReplyDeleteWe know Christ was crucified between 30 and 36 AD and the temple was destroyed in 70AD so there's around 35 years in between and the apostles were alive and did write the books as the Bible states.
ReplyDeleteAnother thing, the apostle James died in AD62 , Paul Died in AD64, and Peter died in AD65. None of these men made mention of the temple destruction taking place in their lifetime while the Gospels were being written. These men mentioned in their Writtings about prophesy being fulfilled but not once did they write about the temple destruction in AD70 so it is safe to assume the Gospels were written by them as the Bible teaches.
ReplyDeleteMIke thinks that God speaks with a King James style of English.
ReplyDeleteSo Mike, do you think that the Jesus story follows along with the Moses story by complete accident then?
http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/charts/Typology%20of%20Moses%20and%20Jesus.htm
I'm not mad at you Mike, nor do I hate you. I know I sound that way. I'm appalled at what your belief system is trying to do to the world, and how little you so-called christians care about anything that Jesus cared about. It's hard not to get upset while talking to someone that is a representative of that belief system. From my point of view, you and those like you are trying to end the world, with your eyes on the afterlife, and so you don't care about this one, not even a little bit. Children can starve, and it does not move you. Oh, maybe it moves *you* personally, but the majority of evangelicals don't care, don't see any need to help, don't give a shit about anybody but themselves. I take it out on you, sorry. I'd feel worse about it, but I know that you do in fact share many of their terribly wrongheaded beliefs, and nothing will ever convince you of how wrong you are. I get frustrated. Sorry. It doesn't do any good for me to set a bad example while trying to get you to set a good one.
ReplyDeleteIt makes much more sense that the Gospel writers wrote Jesus as a new Moses than Jesus just accidentally happening to have the same kinds of things going on around him, like a king trying to kill him by committing genocide, Moses life saved by Miriam, his sister, Jesus life saved by his mother Mary(Miriam).
ReplyDeleteOf course Joseph brought the Hebrews to Egypt and Joseph brought Jesus to Egypt.
All coincidences?
Brian: "Proving" to Mike that the Gospels upon which he rests the cornerstones of his hoped-for Heavenly rewards were clearly not written by the people whose names they bear is, unfortunately, "tilting at windmills". He cannot accept even the
ReplyDeletepossibility that you are right, since this would represent a chink in his armor of faith. In fact, to a person truly committed to what is taught in those Gospels, their authorship should be totally irrelevant, but to Mike, this issue is an opportunity for him to "defend" the faith, using arguments that he has clearly had provided to him by Biblical apologists he has listened to before.
Ian that would be a reasonable explanation if one truly did not believe in God and was looking for a way to explain away Biblical facts. I don't pretend to be as smart as you and I congratulate you on your wonderful education. When I read the Bible I am looking for scriptural harmonies and if I come across something that doesn't seem to be in harmony it is because I missed something so I start over. There are many parallels in the scriptures such as the story of Moses and Jesus. Mose said a prophet shall The Lord your God raise up unto you likened unto me. Jesus is the prophet that Moses was referring to and a fulfillment of that prophesy. The prophesy was a sign to the Jews so they could know when God had fulfilled His promise to them. The same can be said about Elijah and Jonh the Baptist as well as Jonah and Jesus in fact Jesus said Jonah was a sign when He said as Jonah was in the belly of the whale for three days and there nights so must the Son of man be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights.
ReplyDeleteIan, I am we'll aware of the fact that King James English was used in the translation. What you want to keep in mind is this the 49 scholars that translated the word of God used what is known as the Bishops Bible for a baises along with the original manuscripts for accuracy.
ReplyDeleteHarvey, you are the one who cannot except the possibility that I'm right because that would put a large question mark on your nonbelief system that you have used to explain away your heritage. Harvey comes to atheist blogs to gain support for his doubts. Just think Harvey if there is no God then there are NO JEWS which in turn frees you from your responsibility as a Jew. What is it Harvey to big a load for you to carry?
ReplyDeleteYou are comically wrong. Do you like to be this funny?
DeleteHarvey is exactly right, and you managed to be funny trying to say otherwise. Can't you even see what kind of person that you have made of yourself in this life? It's really not funny to be that, well, funny.
DeleteUm, let's see, which one cannot accept that they might be wrong about anything, the doctor that is always eminently reasonable and logical and humble in his discourse, or the religious person that can never be proven wrong because they simply ignore all evidence and fact and take everything on faith? Hmmmmmmm....
He cannot accept even the possibility that you are right, since this would represent a chink in his armor of faith.
Delete-Harvey
-----------------------------------
Mike, how is this *not* an accurate, a very accurate in fact, description of you?
It is. No denying it. It's you.
Plus, what do you mean with "if there is no god then there is no Jews?"
DeleteThere are tons of christians who believe in a god that isn't there and it doesn't stop them in any way.
Mike: I was born and remain a Jew, but have realized for over fifty years that although there may be great wisdom scattered about in Jewish Scripture and the Rabbis' commentaries thereon, there is no God responsible for any of it, only men and their philosophies. I have no "responsibilities" to any of it, other than the respect I have after all these years for whatever useful philosophical wisdom my forebears may have been able to provide to Humanity. Since it is clear to me that The Old Testament is nothing more than interesting allegories intended to illustrate how people ought to treat each other, certainly the "Gospels" that you find so important cannot have any greater value than that. My forebears were (like yours, of course) bronze age tribesmen who chose to believe in an even older God tradition, through which they managed briefly to band together successfully in the face of much larger and stronger empires that surrounded them, as they still do today.
DeleteMike, who did you get to write that comment for you?
ReplyDeleteHow is it possible that the supposed facts surrounding Moses birth can be so in sync with the supposed facts surrounding Jesus birth, even down the names of important characters?
It's no attempt to 'explain away' Biblical facts at all, since you can read of the events surrounding both Moses and Jesus and plainly see the parallels.
Now was there a tradition of updating stories among the Jews to use the 'truth' of an earlier time to reflect that truth in their present time? Yes, yes there was, it is called midrash.
Now was there a Hellenized Jewish philosopher promoting a merging of Greek and Jewish philosophies at that time?
"Philo used philosophical allegory to attempt to fuse and harmonize Greek philosophy with Jewish philosophy. His method followed the practices of both Jewish exegesis and Stoic philosophy. His allegorical exegesis was important for several Christian Church Fathers, but he has barely any reception history within Judaism. He believed that literal interpretations of the Hebrew Bible would stifle humanity's view and perception of a God too complex and marvelous to be understood in literal human terms."
Philo introduced the word LOGOS, (".. became a technical term in philosophy, beginning with Heraclitus (ca. 535–475 BC), who used the term for a principle of order and knowledge".) in his attempt to combine the two philosophies.
"The Gospel of John identifies the Logos, through which all things are made, as divine (theos),[7] and further identifies Jesus as the incarnate Logos."
All quotes are from Wikipedia.
I even linked to a Christian site which proudly compares Jesus to Moses, it's not a secret or an 'explaining away'.
Are there, for instance, as you say, 'many parallels' of a Gospel writer bringing in a word from ancient Greek philosophy and identifies Jesus as exactly that, The Logos?
This would have been anathema to Jewish philosophers at the time, but not to followers of Philo, right?
If you read up on Philo, he had an audience with the infamous Caligula because his people, in Alexandria, were being persecuted by the non-Jewish population at that time. It would be no 'explaining away' if we assume that some of those Alexandrian Jews fled from(or were railroaded out) their homes and moved to Judea, their ancestral homeland to continue their studies in peace.
ReplyDeleteNow I don't think it's too much of a stretch to imagine them creating a narrative around a new Moses and his lieutenant Joshua(aka Yeshua, aka Jesus), something which other Jews would recognize immediately and, hopefully accept.
Their narrative became tailored for different audiences, emphasizing perhaps the virgin birth and/or the lineage of the new Moses, the new King, perhaps disguising their frustration mid-story. The story of the fig tree which will not bear fruit. The fig tree is Judea and there is no fruit on it, Jesus cannot seem to make it bear fruit(attract followers) since most of the population is 'out of season', according to the Gospel writer, Jesus wants the tree to bear fruit NOW, but the tree is not in the new season, the writer's season. It doesn't take a prophet to realize that the shit is about to hit the fan, or even if they're busily filling in details WHILE the shit is hitting the fan, right?
Who couldn't write a story in the future tense about something that's already happened? Something like the Romans getting fed up with the lot of them and tearing their temple down.
It would be much more effective as a prophecy than as a, "Well, they wouldn't buy into our much nicer version so that's what happens.", right?
"The prophesy was a sign to the Jews so they could know when God had fulfilled His promise to them."
ReplyDeleteAnd that's why the Jews saw this sign and mostly all became Christians, not. No, according to the Gospels, God decides to throw his Chosen People under the bus, right?
I mean, just LOOK, they had Jesus as such an obvious Moses, they had him perform parallel miracles and actions.
Tell me one thing Mike, where in the Old Scriptures is it prophesied that Jesus will be a Nazarene? Oh, a Gospel writer says it was a prophecy that simply had to be, but there is no prophecy to be found, except the declaration that there was, somewhere in the Old Scriptures, a prophecy concerning this.
Ask that apologist who congratulates me on my being smart and having such a wonderful education, he'll spin it around for you.
Yes Pboy, it's "you are so much smarter than me, with that wonderful education, but I know better."
ReplyDeleteI've gotten that a lot over the years, too. They will even admit that they're not *intelligent* and still believe they simply cannot be wrong. Pretty amazing. The density on display here is white-dwarf-star level.
(PS: Fundamentalist/Evangelical christian clarification: "White dwarf star" is not Herve Villechaize)
ReplyDeleteIt's like with climate change. People that can't even understand the science at a basic level feel they're qualified to criticize it and pretend it isn't real. That's very fucking offensive, and dangerous
ReplyDelete"What you want to keep in mind is this the 49 scholars that translated the word of God..."
ReplyDeleteNo I don't. Why? These people translated the booklets from whichever language they were in, into the English they spoke at the time.
But this doesn't mean God and/or Jesus actually spoke in the English of King James' time, as you seem to be imagining when you consider what God might say or somesuch. King James English isn't the Divine English of the ancients, Mike, that's just how the translators happened to speak at that time.
So what, exactly would I be keeping in mind the translators, who somehow had originals to translate from, although no one else did.
http://xkcd.com/1305/
ReplyDeleteReminded me of the last days of the DD blog
Lol, me too.
DeleteRYAN? As in Anderson? Where have *you* been? Long time...
ReplyDeleteYes I did write my own comments Ian.
ReplyDeleteWhen I read the Bible I am looking for scriptural harmonies and if I come across something that doesn't seem to be in harmony it is because I missed something so I start over.
ReplyDelete-Observant
----------------------------------
So when you don't get something you assume it has to be *you?* Mike, I hate to break it to you, but those are flashes of *sanity* that you're suppressing. If you keep just thinking it must be you, then eventually you will just accept that it doesn't make sense because you're just not seeing the sense, and not because it's senseless.
In harmony? Of all words, you choose harmony. It's the opposite of harmonious, Mike, it's hypocritical and illogical. And just plain wrong. Except the parts about loving others, those sorts of things that Jesus talked about mostly and you guys understand about as well as you do Mandarin Chinese, the Bible is senseless, wrong, and dangerous because it's believed without thinking about it.
Did you just start using a spell-checker then, Mike? Also it didn't 'sound' like something you put together.
ReplyDeleteI know lol I took my time when I wrote it
ReplyDeleteBrian that goes for Christians as well... No God, No Christians or Jews.
ReplyDeleteWell, you're all nonexistent then. How's that feel?
ReplyDeleteGood
ReplyDeleteSo you admit there's no god. About time!
ReplyDeleteOkay, we're done here. Next!
Whether or not what became the Christian gospels were based on writings contemporary to time in question, is not really of much help in supporting truth claims. After all, the Book of Mormon and Dianetics were fabricated in modern times drawing in millions of rabid believers despite the fact that the details of the frauds upon which they are based are crystal clear to anyone.
ReplyDeletehttp://salviaspace.blogspot.com/2013/12/profoundly-deep-state.html
ReplyDeleteAny of my skeptic friends wanna take a crack at this one?
Why, I wonder, does my bias get so damn much confirmation?
Why, I wonder, does my bias get so damn much confirmation?
ReplyDeleteCause that's how it works ;)
Sure it is. And it's just coincidence that I've been waking up the dog, my son in the other room, and my wife, over and over, and lately intentionally, very reliably?
ReplyDeleteI guess when one is an absolute realist one is limited in their responses to something like this. It is always mere chance and confirmation bias even if it happens a hundred times in a row.
Fortunately I am not so constrained.
Okay. I thought I knew how confirmation bias worked. Perhaps not. I give you the benefit of the doubt for the purposes of this exchange.
ReplyDeleteSo my question is, how does coincidence and confirmation bias explain the experience that I had night before last? You read it, I am assuming. How does it work like that? I'm sitting there, haven't moved a muscle in an hour or more, she's sound asleep, I decide to awaken her, I quite intentionally send a wave of what looks like spatial distortion at her with the express purpose of awakening her, it touches her, and she awakens *very* suddenly and completely.
Fill in the blanks for me, willya? How is that confirmation bias? How is it a coincidence when I do this literally all the time now? I just want to know.
To me, imagining that I am you, all I'd be able to think is that either my sadly deluded friend is lying or has lost his sanity. What I mean by that, is that the coincidence explanation and the confirmation bias explanation does not/can not apply due to the frequency of repetition of the phenomena, so the only thing it can be is either intentional or unintentional distortion of the facts themselves. Am I wrong? Or can you still say that it's coincidental? Is it always going to be coincidental even after another year of waking people and animals up *on cue?*
B, I promise to take a look at what you wrote on the other blog and share a snarkless opinion that hopefully will include some thoughts on how you might generate some interesting control elements into the process. No promises but, I'll give it as fair a assessment as I'm able from afar.
ReplyDeleteThank you! That's precisely what I was hoping for.
DeleteDo you know that I have to shut off our baby monitor now when I meditate or else I invariably awaken my son in the next room just by focusing on him? If I can hear him, hear the monitor, I focus on it when in my altered state and worry about him awakening... and then as I meditate, distracted like that, and hit a certain point where I can see a light inside of my head, he gets more and more noisy until he actually wakes up, within a minute or so of me starting to worry that he will. It happened three nights in a row, so I had to think of why it was happening, I concluded it was because I could hear him amplified in the room through the monitor, so I shut it off two nights ago (just while I meditate) and he's sleeping through the night again.
ReplyDeleteHe's in the next room, for crying out loud.
He's literally never awakened in the middle of the night before like that since we've been in this house, so the last three of the four years of his life he's slept peacefully.
And it's not just that I wake him up. Two times out of the three, I heard him moving, so I stopped the meditation, he stopped moving, then I started it again, and he started again at the same point in the meditation (when I start to see light inside my head) and so on, several times, until he woke completely.
A clarification:
Delete"until he actually wakes up, within a minute or so of me starting to worry that he will"
This is not completely accurate. Yes, within a minute of me starting to worry about it, but always precisely when that light comes on in my head at that point of the meditation. So from my point of view it's very precise. The light comes on, and he starts to move, to make noises. If I don't stop, he awakens within a few seconds.
I'm saying that I am aware enough to even test this stuff while it's happening, and it's passing the tests.
ReplyDeleteOh hi Pliny... If your comment seemed to move it was because I edited my two comments and re-posted them while you were apparently commenting. Sorry there.
ReplyDeleteLet's see... control elements... I already have complete silence. I typically am motionless although one time I gestured (silently) at my sleeping wife and she woke up... no smells since a lot of time elapses between me smoking the salvia and events occurring plus it's not a strong smell to begin with... Awakenings always happen on cue, and by that I mean that I can see a wave of distortion or *something* moving toward them and they awaken precisely when it touches them, except for my son of course...
ReplyDeleteI've just told you how repeated meditations brought repeated results with my son, as in he stirred every time I got to the same point in the meditation until it finally awakened him completely.. and once after he fell back to sleep I thought to meditate again, got to the same point, and of course he stirred so I stopped for the night because I didn't want him to wake up again.
What controls can be introduced? I'm willing to introduce them.
Also, my wife is a very sound sleeper. Ridiculously sound. She can sleep anywhere and sleeps through loud noises all the time. Practically the only times that she ever wakes up in the middle of the night like that are when I awaken her. I mean, she sleeps like a rock at the bottom of a still pond... so in a way she's ideal for a subject in that sense.
ReplyDeleteIf I were your wife, I'd be just about ready to hit you over the head with a skillet after waking me up hundreds of times. Just saying.
ReplyDeleteI know! She's very good about it, but to tell you the truth sometimes she's not that happy about it. Still, all in the mane of science... er, mysticism.... er, shamanism... er, magic.... er, whatever it is.
ReplyDeleteShe especially doesn't like me to screw around with the pug's mind.
I find it surreal and yet amusing that here I am basically doing the impossible and she's like, "honey, please don't wake up our son tonight if you can help it." So mundane, no?
She accepts it for being real... has for some time actually. Not even amazed or anything. That's what I get for marrying a wiccan.
Um, all in the mane of science?
Delete"name" of course
Hey, check this out:
ReplyDeletehttps://twitter.com/SalviaMovie
Sure, it's a salvia movie apparently, but I found it by googling my own blog's name, "A World Out Of Mind."
Second tweet down sends people to my blog.
And I didn't do it. I guess the maker of the movie did? Dunno... I don't do Twitter... although maybe I might start.
So, Mike, question. what is it that you want?
ReplyDeleteI'm not talking about what it is that you get from commenting on Brian's blog.
You say you study the Bible and if you find something that doesn't seem to 'harmonize', you search for the 'harmony' which you missed. But why are you doing it?
Seems to me that you already have your final answer, that being a personal connection with God.
Now you might have instantly understood that this meant that it was true that Jesus sacrificed himself for the sins of all mankind that we might all not perish, but have eternal life, or you might have studied up on it and come to that, exact conclusion.
So, what's the point of studying the Bible? You know what good is and you know what bad is, right?
You know that bad seems to win out until, in the end, Jesus returns and rules over the Earth judging everyone according to their deeds or whatever criteria He likes, right?
So, what is it you're looking for when you study your Bible? Are you looking to reprove to yourself that you're not mistaken?
Well there's two things wrong with that.
1) You know that that isn't what you're looking for, you can't be any more than 100% convinced.
2)Obviously it's a great comfort to you, your worldview, so you're not seriously trying to do anything to jeopardize that.
Now, do you imagine that you Christians, as a loose group, are aiming at a political agenda, The Wedge, as it is known, whereby you push for a common law which aligns more and more with God's Law(as you understand it), converting common law so that breaking God's Law(as you understand it) is not only a sin, but a crime punishable by common law, thereby forcing your ideology on everyone?
Ian , what an imagination you have!
DeleteI see what he's talking about. You deny it then. Not a surprise. All your side is about is controlling everything, Dominionists and such. Some of your lawmakers even go to places like Nigeria and help them create laws that give death sentences for being gay and things like that.
DeleteYou're in all levels of government from local to national, infiltrated us like spies, only appointed and elected because of how popular Pride is among you. You'll never win, but it'll take decades to get you out. It's like bedbugs.
Whatever.
http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.ca/2013/12/bible-prophecy-fulfilled-part-3.html#more
ReplyDeleteis hilarious, makes a mockery out of the entire story. Could anyone believe these so-called facts when plainly written?
http://glory2godforallthings.com/2013/12/21/the-christian-reading-of-the-old-testament/
This explains how midrash works without mentioning the word midrash and lawyerly re-invents the meaning of such 'confusing' words as 'prophecy' and 'fulfillment', just for you!
Basically only Jesus knew what the Gospel writers were on about and HE(Jesus) explained it to them before they wrote it. It is, apparently an old traditional way of explaining the tradition itself, you see?
So, we're talking midrash here, right? Well, yes but definitely no because Jesus himself is commanding that they write it like that, 'an open mind opening minds', you see?
Well, no. Just lawyer-speak for 'bullshit'. If the veracity of the characters are in question, if the meaning of the words 'prophecy' is in question, it's bullshit.
"Ian , what an imagination you have!"
ReplyDeleteI'm guessing you imagine that that is actually 'an answer', since it was in 'reply' to my question.
You guys all seem to dance around, duck and weave and that. Did you never notice that in yourselves.
I was talking with a Christian guy on FaceBook and asked him some questions, which I finally answered myself, 'no, and, no'.
I had asked one other question and he made me promise to answer his one question if he answered mine.
So after a convoluted comment which seemed to mean the 'no and no', as I said, I answered his question.
Well big deal, his next response was, "'Night Ian."
What? What was the big deal of responding to his question and wanting an answer if he was going to cut the conversation off.
Could you re-read my comment, my question to you and actually give it a go at an actual answer??
Would that be possible?
"Ian , what an imagination you have!"
ReplyDeleteAnother thing I have to say about that is that you only think that it's my vivid imagination because you think your ideology is 'normal' and of course you imagine that everyone believes in God, we're just 'angry' at HIM or 'denying' HIM or somesuch nonsense.
Let's clear that one up, if that's possible. Do you Mike, understand that atheists actually do not believe that there are such things as gods, not even one, or do you just imagine that we all 'really' know God and are 'somehow' against HIM?.
Do you even understand the difference between there being a God and there being 'the idea of God' or 'the concept of God'?.
There's a giant difference, and atheists, when they say anything about 'God', they're talking about 'the idea of God', or 'the concept of God', except the language is difficult here because if we say, for example, "There exists no God!", we don't mean, 'the idea, or concept of God', because we know that there is that idea, that concept, we're just saying that there's no reality to it.
It's impossible to take you seriously Mike. What a fooler. You think I just made up the Wedge Strategy, just out of my imagination? You're a fool. You happen to be a fool who doesn't say, in his heart, there is no God.
ReplyDeleteWhy don't you watch the movie, "Gaslight.", over and over 'til you realize that it's you who is being 'gaslighted', and you know who is doing it to you, you know.
Step one, take your money out of your pocket and give it away. Was that your religious leader who took your money?
Bingo.
Ian asks, what am I looking for? I'm looking to rightly divide the word of truth. To understand Gods reasoning towards mankind.... I want to understand why God made man and then allowed the devil to tempt knowing man would sucomb to the temptation. I realize atheist do not believe in Gods of any nature but the fact that they try to disprove the Bible is what challenges me to debate the scriptures. For example the prophesy concerning Jesus being called a Nazarene, just because its not found in the Old Testament does not mean it was never prophesied. There is no doubt of the possibility many writings have been undiscovered. But, that which has been found is substantial enough for one to be persuaded the God is and a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. You say I'm a fool? Not hardly I'm anything but a FOOL. And not as dumb as you think lol
ReplyDeleteI want to understand why God made man and then allowed the devil to tempt knowing man would sucomb to the temptation.
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The right answer is the one that you'll never accept: He didn't.
I will admitt the majority of religious leaders are in it for the money. But, there are a few trying to serve God because they do know Him to be real. Which brings to mind what Jesus said. There is a broad road that leads to destruction and many there be that go there in and a straight gate that leads to life everlasting and FEW there be that trun there in.
ReplyDeleteWhy yes I do understand the difference between God being real and the concept of a God. You believe in only what you can see taste or feel... I believe I have seen Christ felt Christ and tasted of His riches thru the faith He has given me. Faith is the substance of things hoped for the EVIDENCE of things not seen with the natural eye.
ReplyDelete"Faith is the substance of things hoped for" = Faith has no substance
Delete"the EVIDENCE of things not seen with the natural eye." = No evidence either.
Faith = gullibility
Turn
ReplyDeleteMike:
ReplyDeleteIn the true spirit of this season, this still Jewish Atheist and his Lutheran wife wish you and yours all the joys to which your faith entitles you. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year (or, if you prefer, Happy Holidays)!!
Thank you Harvey and Happy Holidays to you and yours
DeleteWhy'd you say "happy holidays" to him and not "merry christmas?"
DeleteBecause he's not a christian? Why should that stop you? Isn't that precisely the same reason that stores say it to their shoppers, in case they're not christians? And you guys hate it when they do it, but here you are, doing exactly the same thing... Huh???
Why should you care for Harvey's feelings like that, when your side is asking, no, telling people to always say 'merry christmas' all the time to whoever happens to enter their showrooms, and devil take the ones that don't like it?
May you all get the presents(gifts) that you're wishing for! I know that Brian is hoping for a gun that shoots plastic 'bullets' which have those 'lick and stick to glass' endy bits.(I can't think of the name, if there is one, maybe I should wish for the answer to that for Xmas, but I digress), which he can then use to 'doink' his sleeping wife awake!!!
ReplyDeleteLMAO. I'm ribbing you buddy, you and your boy could have a ball with those, X-tek or somesuch, from Walmart.
How's Walter? I wonder what his Xmas wish would be? "Ruler of the WORLD!"?
The power to make you open the fridge and give him those cold-cuts he knows you're holding out on him!
I HAVE a response, an actual answer to your answers, but today/tomorrow is not the day for that, don't ask me why, it's just a feeling I get when I look to the West.
My advice, turn off your computer and take your dog out for a walk! Steel yourself with some rum if you have to.
Don't have a dog? Get one.
I wonder what they would say to us if they could talk, and I think it would go like this.
"Why do you stare at those rectangles all day? We should go out and guard the house, smell who has been around, scavenge, hunt, have a pee and a poo, play! What is wrong with you people?
How's Walter? I wonder what his Xmas wish would be? "Ruler of the WORLD!"?
Delete-Same as most christians, then. That's generally the very least that they'll accept.
Happy Mammon Day, Dec. 25th!
ReplyDelete(As if it could be anybody else..)
Ian , what an imagination you have!
ReplyDelete---------------------------
Just wanted to pause for a moment and contemplate how perfect this line is. It's a villain line. Something Blofeld would say to Bond, or The Evil Queen would say to Snow White. Imagine it said with a slight German accent for best effect.
Best said just before villain presses a button and the Hero's chair clamps wrist-manacles down on his or her wrists, thereby confirming everything that said hero was "imagining."
Oh my goodness, it's Mammonmas Eve! How it sneaks up on you...
ReplyDeleteAs if there's a war on Christmas... what Christmas? All that's left is naked greed and egotism. HAH! Joke's on Christians.
If I'm sound asleep at midnight tonight the spirit of naked childhood greed and avarice comes down my chimney and gives me rewards for being greedy all year long. I can't wait!
ReplyDeleteAnyhow, it's not the war on Christmas, it's the pathetic futile struggle against the inevitability of Christmas eating the entire calendar.
ReplyDeleteMy wife and I are not Christians and are offended by all the lies Christians tell their children on this holiday occasion. However we've decided to embrace the holiday... or rather, steal the motherfucker from the Christians... hey, it's not like there's anything holy or sacred left of it anyhow... so why not just tell the kid that it's all fake but just good fun?
Just looked at the TV...
ReplyDeleteNORAD's tracking Santa already. I think this year Homeland Security has a surface-to-air missile with his name on it.
(is it just me or is this insanely ridiculous?)
Also MSNBC is showing a Lockup Corcoran marathon so that christians at home can see how christians in jail are doing this holiday season. "Tis the season to be incarcerated, fa la la la...."
Ahhhhh, good old schadenfreude always gives the season that extra bit of joy... Of course they can indulge themselves in the fib that after all, since they did something bad, they're not *real* christians, so it's good to laugh at their misery...
Brian, I'm not trying to shove Chridtianity down anyone's throat here. I respect Harvey's feelings on the subject by wishing him Happy Holidays.
ReplyDeleteChristianity
DeleteI think it would be wise to proff read before I post ya think?
ReplyDeleteYes, proff reading is a good idea.
DeleteHappy Holidays to Ian and family and to Brian and your family as well
DeleteLol.... Merry Christmas to you and yours, Mike!
DeleteI like saying "merry christmas" actually, now that it's a secular holiday...
That wasn't my point at all, Mike. It's that your fellow christians all HATE it when people say "happy holidays." But hey, you were *nice* enough to say it to a Jewish man. Because you knew he was Jewish.
ReplyDeleteIn stores the customers don't wear "My Religion Is _____" tags. So people say "happy holidays' rather than "merry christmas" and the christians all have a cow about it as if it's a war on freaking christmas when it's just people trying to not offend other people that they don't even know.
Canadians say, "Have a nice day!", but you know they don't mean it.
ReplyDeleteWould you prefer them to say, "Go and fuck yourself!", and mean it?
What does that have to do with the price of pork bellies in Peoria?
ReplyDeleteI want to understand why God made man and then allowed the devil to tempt knowing man would sucomb to the temptation.
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I do love this.
Why indeed?
Mike, you are looking to explain what you already believe. That's why it doesn't seem to make sense. So instead of concluding that it didn't happen that way, or that it didn't happen at all, you are forced by your idea of "faith" to just believe in it *somehow* in spite of the fact that it doesn't make any sense, and that's how religion destroys the mind of the faithful, by forcing them to believe in nonsense.
So you spend your time wondering why you (you poor sinner who just doesn't grasp the word of God) can't see any sense in that, while you think that you know that it indeed must make sense, because you believe it to be true.
ReplyDeleteNo.
You are right the first time, it doesn't make any sense, and just because God is God and God is mysterious isn't a good answer. In fact, it's a terrible answer. A superior being should be MORE logical than we poor humans, not less.
I didn't say it didn't make sense I said I wanted to understand it. There is a difference !
ReplyDeleteThat means that you don't.
ReplyDeleteAnd you want to.
But you never, ever will, because it makes no sense.
Someday though, you'll convince yourself that you don't need to, or that you already do when you don't. That's how it goes.
Your mind, I mean.
What's funny is secular people would rather hear happy holidays than merry Christmas yet it is the Christmas holidays that are being celebrated. Too funny and petty! Lol
ReplyDeleteMike, you are half retarded. I'm not offended by someone wishing me a Merry Christmas, I'm offended by the mouth breathers who are offended by "Happy Holidays". As a Christian, or Paulist or whatever it is you are, would you wish someone whom you dont know to be Christian, a good Ash Wednesday in early February?
ReplyDeleteNo I wouldn't moron because I'm not catholic.
DeleteBy the way Happy Holidays Moron.
DeletePetty? What the fuck is WRONG with you?
ReplyDeleteYou're the ones being petty. Pot calling kettle black much?
What about Hanuka, Kwanza, Yule, and the Winter Solstice? People celebrate those at this time of year too. What about atheists, or believers in religions that don't have any holidays around this time of year? It's still a national holiday for them, too, so it's appropriate to wish them happy holidays...
It's always all about you, huh? Nice attitude to have on Christmas.
This is all due to Fox News. How I fucking hate that network of lies. People on that channel are always looking for the next thing to scare simpleminded believers with. "Ooh, there's a war on Christmas dontcha know!" What a load of barf. Bill O'Reilly is a total idiot buffoon.
ReplyDeleteThey make MONEY off your FEAR, Mike. They need to invent shit to scare you into watching them.
None of it is real, Mike.
Not mad atcha Mike... just hard to remain calm while someone I know is falling prey to an amoral scam designed to entrap people by playing to their fears and prejudices.
ReplyDeleteYour fears neuter your minds. And that's scary.
Lol, they make zero off me Brian.. No fear as well.
ReplyDeleteThey get you to believe them and watch them because of it, and that's all they want. Then they can influence you with brazen lies that you won't bother to check on, check whether they're lies or not, because you learn to trust the liars at Fox, because after all, they're on the good side in the War On Christmas and all. The made-up war. Same with many of their stories... they make shit up, Mike. Just make it up. It's terrible, and all political. They use religion to get you to trust them.
ReplyDeleteThe fear manifests as anger and hatred of "the other side." They make liberals look worse so that you learn to distrust them, even distrust science, and they use your religion to manipulate you.
ReplyDeleteA great man once said only a coward would write a letter and not sign his name to it! Who is anonymous ?
ReplyDeleteLol, Fox News only has to report the news the liberals look bad all by their self.
ReplyDeleteWhat if you're wrong? What if you just believed a bunch of craven lies backed up by misguided theology?
DeleteWhat if?
You can't even consider that, can you? So self-satisfied in your certainty and disdain. Pathetic.
Conservatism is always seeking a superior moral justification for greed and hatred. They generally find it in the Bible, where you can find justification for just about anything.
I don't distrust science Brian.... I just don't believe it's possible man evolved thru natural selection. Look at the anatomy of man it screams design
ReplyDeleteIt screams really BAD design. Look at the human spine for instance. Pathetic! Gee, I wonder why it looks like it was originally "designed" for walking on all fours, and then got 'repurposed' for upright walking.
DeleteYou scream willful ignorance. Oh, did I say willful? I meant "joyous."
Actually even a cursory examination of human anatomy, physiology and genetics is extremely supportive of human evolution rather than design. It really is quite amazing if you study the details, particularly the molecular biology.
ReplyDeleteNow I am speachless.... I just seen a video of people born with tails.... WTF? Oops did I say that? Lol
ReplyDelete