Tuesday, September 30, 2008

Belief and Faith

"When a man has once brought himself to accept uncritically all the
absurdities that religious doctrines put before him and even to
overlook the contradictions between them, we need not be greatly
surprised at the weakness of his intellect"
-Sigmund Freud: The Future of an Illusion

"The religious man has no trouble believing the ridiculous and only wonders why he's so much better at it than everybody else is. This he takes as a sign from God."
-St. Brian the Godless

What is a belief?

If I think that I have a belief, I’m not sure. But if I believe that I have a thought, it implies certainty.

Belief is a tricky subject. The words “belief” and “faith” both imply thinking something is true without evidence. Most of their definitions seem to entail this. And yet, most believers see it quite differently, as beliefs somehow trumping mere thoughts, as in being preferable and somehow superior to them.

If I think that there may be a God, or even if I think that there is a God, I am still open to discussion. If new data comes in, I can change my mind easily enough.

But if I believe that there is a God and have faith in it, there can be no more discussion. My mind is closed to new data that may disprove my belief. Forever.

In the Christian mind, belief and faith are seen as very good things indeed. They are held up as the optimal mindset. In my mind however, they’re anathema to human growth, both personally and as a society.

As little children we are asked by our parents to believe in many things. In a Christian home, belief in God is a central tenet. You have to believe, or you’re bad, evil, and wrong. You have to love God with all your heart and mind, even if you can’t see Him or really talk to Him, and even if the things that He does make no sense. Even if there’s not one shred of hard evidence for His existence. Even if people that call themselves believers and faithful seem to do a lot of bad things in the world. Against all logic and reason, you must not question. You have to believe, or you’re bad, bad, bad.

There are benefits to belief and faith in God. They make understanding an incredibly and possibly infinitely complex reality, utterly simple. GodDidIt. Period. Next subject.

Having belief and faith makes thinking about one’s own death much easier. If you’re good, you’ll live on forever in heaven, playing cosmic badminton on clouds and watching people you didn’t like in life fry in hell on the widescreen. Such bliss! Of course, if you’re not good you burn forever in hell, because after all, God loved you and you spurned him, and he’s a jealous, wrathful, shallow God who cares about such things a lot. But of course you’re good. You know this because you believe in God, so you’re good by definition. So no need to worry about the place downstairs. You’ve got Pascal’s Wager covered.

So what end product does this produce in a person?

It produces a person that is absolutely sure of their own rectitude at all times. They know that they’re right about their God and about reality, and thus that all other faiths and non-faiths are miserably wrong, and even evil. They do not question themselves, since to do so is considered evil. If you have the audacity to question them about their faith, they automatically "know" you to be evil and perhaps even satanic, so it will only reinforce their own position. They see this life as a game, a conflict between good and evil, presumably represented as God and Satan. If you point to any crack in that logic, you’re the stupid one in their eyes. And on the side of Satan as well. Nice way to dismiss it.

The end result of this is a self-serving egomaniac, not a spiritual person. Pride kills real spirituality like Raid kills roaches.

The senselessness of all this, the affront to logic that it represents to any person not involved in the religion, is astonishing. And yet, the faithful “know” that God is real, and all the rest, to the exclusion of all evidence offered. “God works in mysterious ways.” How many times did I hear that litany as a child? Too many to count. If you rephrase it to more reflect the reality of the situation, the more accurate version reads “God works in illogical and seemingly evil ways completely contradictory to how we insist on seeing Him in spite of all that.”

If we sometimes marvel at pederast priests, or at serial killers that are leaders of their congregation, or at the hypocrisy of an abortion clinic bombing, we need to remember that we’re not dealing with people that think about things at all; they merely believe and as such are enormously handicapped in this life. They are blind to reality, having willingly rejected it. They are easily led, by anybody that knows the right keywords. They have been taught never to question themselves, so how could they know that they’ve let themselves become deviant? They can’t even see the reality that we’re judging them against, so how can they know when they’ve deviated from it into a self-congratulatory psychosis? They cannot.

So in that light, I have a question for all True Believers, those with Absolute, Unshakeable Faith.

Can you think, or do you just believe that you can? And how would you know if it was only the latter?

46 comments:

  1. Brian,

    I copied this from one of DD's last blogs, "Does Science Really Have Laws?" for the deja vu factor... Or did you include the "Gos works in mysterious ways" thing because of it? Oh well, here goes:

    "I'm an atheist. I have been one since I was about 7 years old. I decided this after seeing a daughter of my father's best friend die from a burst aorta. She was four. At her funeral, her parents, between sobs (they were all Catholic) said, "God works in mysterious ways." I thought this was the single stupidest thing I had ever heard.
    I'm not bitter. I'm not mad at god. I don't believe there is a god to be mad at.
    What I do believe, like someone said above, is that we really are all just here to be a part of the dance of life; to strive to survive long enough to reproduce and pass our genetic heritage on to the next generation. In that regard, I realize that I have completely outlived my own usefulness to the species, as I have had a vasectomy. There is no other purpose to our being here. Religion is about denial; we deny that we are animals, subject to the same considerations of survival and reproduction as any lowly wildebeest. We deny that death is final. We dress up our pre-historic ignorance in a masquerade of reality, call it religion, and continue to deny that we're just as mortal as the squashed raccoon on the side of the road.
    And I don't see this as being a problem AT ALL.

    The thing that made Christians of all of you was your parents, and a bunch of dumb songs in Sunday school. You were brainwashed as little children, and browbeaten into remaining children ("We're all God's Children"... how many times have you heard that one?).

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  2. “God works in illogical and seemingly evil ways completely contradictory to how we insist on seeing Him in spite of all that.”

    Consider the internet won. I am going to try to force myself to hear this phrase in my head whenever anyone says "God works in mysterious ways". It may very well preserve my sanity.

    I am just fortunate that I haven't ever been in the vicinity of people who have uttered that inane phrase in response to an actual tragedy, like in gearheded's story. I probably cannot even fathom the disdain that other atheists may have that absurd consolation due to that fact, but it still pisses me off rightly enough.

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  3. I think there is still faith to be had even if it isn't a faith in a higher being.

    I have faith that my fellow man will do stupid selfish things that make no sense.

    I have faith that there are people out there who are loving and kind and generous to a fault.

    I have faith that my children will grow up and become fine upstanding citizens - I know this because they are my children and I have raised them and they know I will drop kick them into the great beyond (even if there isn't one) if they don't straighten up and fly right.

    I have faith that my husband loves me, but I back that up with a lot of love and attention in return, after all marriage is like an investment. You better hope your putting enough in it so that you get a good return.

    Well, not in this economy any more...

    It's more like love is all you need, cause love may be all you got when your bank closes its doors and you ain't got no job and you can't get no credit.

    I'd have faith in our economy, but this is the great US of A and well, there is no great economist in the sky who could help us out of this cluster fuck.

    Yea Haw!

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  4. Loved your 'The religious man..' saying. Spot on.

    I always wonder why people don't see religion reflected in George Orwell's 1984.

    I mean, it doesn't take a genius to equate Big Brother(who is always right, even if he is wrong) to God.(who is always good even if HE is DOING evil)

    It is all right there, the thought control, the doublethink, the revivals, the scapegoats, the 'with us or against us' mentality, everything.

    It is right there down to sexual repression, the main theme of the book.

    Sexual attraction is a natural thing. If you are gay, you can't help being attracted to boys. If you are hetero you can't help being attracted to different women.

    Any man who says that he is so happily married that he'd NEVER even 'look' at another woman or at least think, "Hey, if I wasn't married..." is lying to himself.

    This helps the church AND Orwell's totalitarian government by making men and women feel guilty for even thinking of 'giving in' to their natural thoughts.

    See how 'natural' it is to use that terminology, "giving in" as though sex = sin = evil in religion AND Orwell's totalitarian regime?

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  5. A belief is a commitment to the truth of something. This, at least, is the basic definition given in psychology and philosophy. Some important ideas follow from this. First, beliefs can't be reduced to thoughts. I can meaningfully say of someone who is sleeping, "He believes that London is in England." Second, beliefs need not be conscious. For example, if you believe that London is in England, then it follows that you believe that London is north of the Equator (even if you've never explicitly had this thought in your entire life). Third, it follows that beliefs are dispositional, since, if they can't be identified with what you're thinking at any one time, or with what you're conscious of, then they describe what you're willing to claim is true, or what you're willing to act upon. Fourth, they do not, as you claim, imply certainty. If I can believe something both without thinking about it and without being conscious that I believe it, then my beliefs in no way entail a sense of certainty.

    It's really quite simple: there are some beliefs a we hold very tentatively (I believe that policy x will help us out of this economic rut), some we hold with a bit more firmness (I believe that my dog, which I've raised since he was a pup, won't bite me), some which we're quite firm about (I believe that my wife loves me), and others we believe without a doubt (I believe that I'm mortal). Here's the key: There's nothing in the concept of a belief, in itself, that precludes the possibility of revision, or even of repudiation. You've simply confused 'belief,' which is dispositional, with the psychological state of certainty.

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  6. Like Gearhead, this is a recent post from DD's "Does Science Really Have Laws?" It was in answer to a question "How did you become an atheist?" I think it applies here, as well.

    How did you become a believer?
    Did you arrive at your beliefs because of what you were taught while growing up, in Church, or by your parents? OR......
    Did you grow up in a world where most people try to get you to believe one way or another, because of a Book in which they say is all the truth you need....
    or in which you are told you will be damned for all eternity if you do not comply with what they say is the "right" way to think and behave, even though you see litle evidence that most of them actually comply with these teachings? OR.....
    In which you can find no logic or evidence of reality, except that "they" tell you it is true....
    OR... in which you know you will be ostracized by the group if you do not comply (and, if they are able, where you will be forced bylaw of the land to comply with some or all of these beliefs, even if you do not believe)......

    Most atheists (I believe!!) have arrived at their lack of belief because of or in spite of their upbringing. In my case, I had an extensive background and education in the Judaism of my forebears. It was not until I was old enough to begin to question, not its practices or doctrines (most of which I still adhere to and think make good sense in one's behavior towards other people), but in whether or not I actually believed in the existance of a Deity of any kind, that I chose to study most of the other established religions seriously. When I failed to find a believeable argument for the existance of any Deity (let alone one that required any type of worship or serious modifications of my behavior to placate him/her/it), I realized that religion is a creation of man to serve his/her own needs to be reassured that death is not an absolute end to everything or that there is greater "meaning" in most people's lives than being born, survivng long enough to reproduce, and, finally, dying and ceasing to exist. As a single atheist/agnostic, I do not speak for any other (as you seem to be trying to get Linda or another of us do to "answer" What do atheists think or believe? I expect, however, that most of us who are not frequently outraged by what may seem to be the insistance of "Believers" on imposing their religious views on those of us who do not CHOOSE to believe or take part in them, have ideas and experiences similar to mine. Not all of us are so angered by the unwillingness of "Christians" to "cast out the motes" in their own eyes before attending to our religious well-being as to use ad hominem and/or foul-mouthed expressions, or (perhaps just a few of us?) to actively attack believers or to argue that religion is damaging to all of us.


    Harvey at 3:33PM on Sep 25th 2008

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  7. The thing that annoys me most about people of faith and belief (yes, I get annoyed and even intolerant!) is the very shallow understanding so many have of what it is they are believing in, and they make it up as they go along.
    A recent example? The email about Barack Obama possible being the antichrist because there is a passage in Revelation describing a 40 yr. old man of Muslim origin, etc. "Christians" are buying it! There is no such passage in the book of Revelation. It seems that anyone can "say" that anything is in the Bible, and religious people believe it because they don't actually know what is in their Bible. One person says it's there, and the group around them will nod their heads. I'm sure every person reading this blog has heard some "it's in the bible" rumors that take hold.
    It's also annoying when they try to describe God's goodness in the face of tragedies. A 5 year old is rescued from certain death and drowning. God must certainly love him, he was there to save and protect him, it was a miracle. The next town over, a 5 year old dies in the back yard pool. Are the parents being punished? Didn't God love HIM? Wasn't he there for him? Oh, of course he was. God loved him so much he called him home, it was his time to be with God. Belief and faith, it seems, is based on what is the best lie to tell yourself about God's plan to make you feel better. Make it up as you go along. Because you believe and there must be a way to explain everything based on your faith. And no one will challenge you as to what you "believe" even if it's just your interpretation. If you believe it, you feel it in your heart from God, therefore it must be right.

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  8. gearheded said,

    The thing that made Christians of all of you was your parents, and a bunch of dumb songs in Sunday school. You were brainwashed as little children, and browbeaten into remaining children ("We're all God's Children"... how many times have you heard that one?).
    -------------------------
    No, thats not it at all.
    I was 21 years of age and was injoying life very much.
    I didn't care anything about God or going to church.

    My mother started calling me on Sunday mournings and begging me to got to church whith her.
    I decided I would go one Sunday mourn, hoping she would leave me alone afterwards.
    I went to church that mourning and took a seat in the very back of the building close to the door.

    While I was setting there wishing it would end, I began to feel very troubled in my heart and at that moment, I knew I was a sinner on my way to hell. I felt something inside of me drawing me to go to the alter to pray, to ask God to foregive me and save my soul.

    But I refused the call, not a call from man but a call from God.
    I thought if I could get away from that place what ever was troubling my soul would stop. I was wrong.

    That night, the fear and trouble was still there,the next day at work the I could hardly perform my job because of the trouble in my soul.
    Several days had gone by until one night as I was driving my car down the road I begin to pray. I ask God to foregive me of my sin, and save my soul from hell, and to my surprise he heard my humble prayer.
    Were fear and trouble raveged my heart,I now had peace with God.

    Many of you will not believe no matter what is said.
    But I assert to all, God is real and very much alive.
    This is why I am a christian,I still enjoy life but know with the promise of everlasting life when this life is over down here.
    Not because of my own goodness for there is none good not even one.

    People say the bible is a book of myths. Well,Jesus said you must be born again, and I found that to be true. The bible said his spirit would be a whitness to my spirit and I found that to be true.

    You believe what you want,for me I'm Going with Jesus.

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  9. ("We're all God's Children"... how many times have you heard that one?).
    -------------------------
    No, we are not all Gods children.
    I know this statement has been said often times, but it is not true.

    All of mankind is Gods creation. But only them who have been born again are his children.

    Jesus told the pharisees that God was not there father, so if God is not there father then they are not his children.
    He went on to say that the devil was there father, why? because of their unbelief.

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  10. I see "faith" as more similar to "trust" than "belief".

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  11. Observant:
    From this and some of your previous posts I have read on other sites, it is obvious that you have had that personal faith experience (been "born again") that many Christians seem to be seeking. If so, no logic or even sincere questioning can have any effect, since you know beyond any doubt that you are saved.
    Some of us (atheists, agnostics, and many as yet "unsaved" christians that I know) find it hard to understand why those Christians who are "born again" find it necessary to get everyone else to agree with their belief that only they have it "right". If you are firm in your faith, it should be of no concern to you if unbeleievrs or as yet "unsaved" other Christians disbelieve or question the "truth" of your version of Christianity. I am Jewish (although an agnostic) and my wife is a lifelong observant Lutheran. Many of our "born again" acquaintances find it necessary to "pray for my soul", telling me about it on every possible occasion. They tell my wife, on the other hand, that her situation is "much worse", because although she has been taught Christ's message, she is still damned because she has not been "born again"! The implication of this seems to be that although I am a poor beknighted Jew who has never been "shown the light" of Christianity, she, somehow, is rejecting Christ, in spite of her upbringing.

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  12. Observant, you say, "While I was setting there wishing it would end, I began to feel very troubled in my heart and at that moment, I knew I was a sinner on my way to hell. I felt something inside of me drawing me to go to the alter to pray, to ask God to foregive me and save my soul."

    Wow! Isn't this the same, "I was a sinner, then I found GOD!", story that can be told by EVERY SINGLE CHRISTIAN EVER!?

    Isn't this the same damned story, this 'message' story which is, "I did it and so can you, if you only TRY!".?

    If you disagree that it is an 'archtype' story then you are simply LYING!

    I have another question, but I'd sure like to hear if you are willing to lie to us about this simple point that your story is EVERY CHRISTIAN'S story.

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  13. I travel to a another town to work one week a month and many people with whom I work are religious fundamentalists who have come to view me as an enigma – a moral person bereft of religion. We have some great discussions and I think they practice some of their talking points with me to see how a skeptic will counter. This last week was no exception and we talked a great deal about this topic. One of them pointedly raised a concern for my soul (which I try to accept as true concern for me rather than a slam) and asked me why I choose to reject Christ – why do I choose not to believe?

    I think my answer really shocked them because it may be impossible for them to imagine. I tried to make them understand that I do not choose to be an unbeliever – I really have no choice in the matter based upon how my mind processes information. Where they see revealed word in the Bible, I see only self-referential circular arguments and claims whose only validation is the fact that the claim was made in the first place – interesting as cultural anthropology and for the purposes of comparison to the myriad other belief structures but hardly the last word in humanity's quest for knowledge. My brain is incapable of registering it in any other way or as viable logic. When confronted with an expectation that I should accept it all without any corroboration, my brain spits out a fault message. They came back with 'but Jesus is God and he died for your sins”, and my response is simply, no, the Bible claims this but offers no support to the claims other than a whole bunch of equally unsupported statements and claims that are indistinguishable from dozens of other claims of divinity from dozens of other books of faith. “How do I know? The Bible tells me so...” hasn't been a strong enough argument since I was nine years old but that essentially is the root explanation for many of the positions taken in defense of religion. I tried to relate to them that just because the Bible says it is holy, therefore it is holy may be enough for them but it is not compelling to me at any level. And it's not because of any crisis of faith. There was no anti- trip to Damascus in my past. No bad event dashed my beliefs. I don't choose to be a skeptic, I just am.

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  14. To Harvey, Floyd and Pliny:

    Thanks for beating me to it, and in all cases, saying it more eloquently than I often seem to be able.
    I'm usually at work when I blog, so many times I can't reply to others' comments as promptly as I wish.
    In any case, To Observant:

    What they said. (points at Harvey, Floyd and Pliny.)

    P.S. You guys can call Me Gear, or Ed, which is my name as in 'Gear Head Ed'. I've been using that handle on aol since '97, spelled GearHedEd. The capitals don't come through in the postings.

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  15. pboy said,Isn't this the same damned story, this 'message' story which is, "I did it and so can you, if you only TRY!".?

    If you disagree that it is an 'archtype' story then you are simply LYING!

    I have another question, but I'd sure like to hear if you are willing to lie to us about this simple point that your story is EVERY CHRISTIAN'S story.

    October 1, 2008 9:51 AM
    ---------------------------
    I know this much, he saved my soul, and he will save your's too if you come his way.
    -------
    Not every christians. Some confess to be christian by way of baptism, or changing there mind and makeing a decision for christ or by laying claim to christ ,all without the born again experience.
    There is a difference.
    --------------

    Thanks Harvey for your coment.
    It is enough for me that I know. But I enjoy talking about Him to others and trying to defend the christian faith.
    I can not see into your wifes heart, but everone I know who has been born again can tell of a time and a place were God made himself known unto them.

    Many people know of christ or know the bible story, but there are few who know him on a personal level.

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  16. In the previous blog, our Blessed Host Brian said,

    "...Yes, this is Skeptic Heaven. You are welcome if you can prove that you question even your own right to be here. :-)"

    Where's my prize, Bri? :o)

    I hadn't even read that until just now, and posted yesterday that "...I realize that I have completely outlived my own usefulness to the species, as I have had a vasectomy." That's questioning my right to be here on a completely different level, LOL!

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  17. Where's my prize, Bri? :o)
    ----------------------
    Herre it is. A lifelong subscription to Nonexistential Magazine. (Opens hands showing nothing within)

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  18. Many people know of christ or know the bible story, but there are few who know him on a personal level.
    ------------------------
    And even fewer that actually went out on a date with him...

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  19. To Observant:

    Here's my question - let's say a person has been saved. Then what?
    What does being saved mean to you as far as the rest of your life is concerned? Is it a ceiling or a floor? (i.e., is it the beginning of responsibilities or the end) Does accepting Christ in this way require ongoing commitments other than reaffirmation? I hope that doesn't sound like an interrogation as I'm just curious to understand.

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  20. All I can add is: Believe I have no faith !

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  21. Observant, you say, "I know this much, he saved my soul, and he will save your's too if you come his way."

    Okay, I'm going to take that one as a 'yes' even though you continue on..
    "-------
    Not every christians. Some confess to be christian by way of baptism, or changing there mind and makeing a decision for christ or by laying claim to christ ,all without the born again experience."

    Well, what can I say about the differences you note here?

    This is the 'we're all different but we're all the same' argument for all the 'denominations' in reverse.

    Seems that you can make these differences out to be hugely important if that 'makes your case' or you can make the differences trivial if that 'helps you out' too.

    I've noticed how Christians can take both sides of an issue, D'Souza's last blog-entry about scientific laws for example.

    If scientific laws are God's laws then they prove God, if not they certainly can't 'counter' the notion of miracles.

    Surely if you truly believe and it is not just 'point-counter-point' then you don't need to stoop to this kind of word-magic at all.

    Part of word-magic is rhetoric, for example your personal story of how you 'came to Christ'!

    Perhaps you imagine that there is a 'counter-story', "How I came to realise that there were no gods!"?

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  22. ObservaNT:

    "It is enough for me that I know. But I enjoy talking about Him to others and trying to defend the christian faith.
    I can not see into your wifes heart, but everone I know who has been born again can tell of a time and a place were God made himself known unto them."

    If it is enough for you that you "know", why do you (and many others who have been "born agin", necessary to keep repaeating your belief to others, whether they agree with you or not? I understand that Christians are admonished to "bear witness" to the good news of Jesus as Saviour, but it has been my understanding that this means by example to others, not by efforts to proselytize. One certainly could not be offended by being "preached to" if they evinced interest or came to a church meeting in curiosity, but the agressive approach to trying to "save" some of us poor unbelievers certainly seems "unChristian" to me. Of course, you cannot see into my wife's heart, nor are you clled upon to do so (neither, by the way, are our born again acquaintances). That is really beside my pint. I think it cannot have been according to Christ's message to "do unto others" to purposely told another Christian that she cannot be saved because she has belonged to the "wrong" church, especially when you (as you say) cannot see into her heart.

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  23. Reply to Harvey:
    purposely told another Christian that she cannot be saved because she has belonged to the "wrong" church, especially when you (as you say) cannot see into her heart.
    -------------------------------
    A person can be saved regardless of the church they attend as long as God calls them to repentance through and by his spirit and power.

    There is nothing a person can do about being born again until God draws them to himself.
    A person does not have the faith to believe in God until God grants them this faith.
    The bible said we are saved by grace through faith that not of ourselves it is the gift of God.

    How is it you being a Jew know not these things.
    The bible said Jesus came unto his own [JEWS].
    I have read your post as well.
    And you have talked about some of the translations being changed down through the ages.
    A change in a name or title does not change Gods plan of redemption through his son Jesus as prophesied by the prophets of old.
    Your own people will not deny Jesus did in fact live and do the things that are recorded in the bible. In fact many say he was the messiah to the gentiles.

    In the new testament we read of a man named Paul, who lived his life according to the strictest sect of the Jews religion. He proved that Jesus was in fact the same man Moses prophesied about as well as all the prophets.

    God can not deny himself just because you do not believe. He abides faithful.

    The reason The kingdom of God was taken away from the Jews was because of their unbelief.

    The reason they were destroyed in AD70 was because they continued to offer the blood sacrifices of anaimals to God for their sins, and counted the holy sacrifice [JESUS] that God provided for them unholy.

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  24. pboy said,How I came to realise that there were no gods!"?
    --------------------------
    I know how you came to it.
    The greatest deception that ever took place was when the devil convinced the world he did not exist. Philosophy 101 sealed it for you.

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  25. Here's my question - let's say a person has been saved. Then what?
    What does being saved mean to you as far as the rest of your life is concerned? Is it a ceiling or a floor? (i.e., is it the beginning of responsibilities or the end) Does accepting Christ in this way require ongoing commitments other than reaffirmation? I hope that doesn't sound like an interrogation as I'm just curious to understand.
    ----------------------------
    Pliny said-
    Lets say a person has been saved then what?
    ---------------
    When we walk according to his will it is a life of great joy and peace.
    ---------------
    Pliny ask-
    What does being saved mean, as far as the rest of your life is concerned?
    --------
    It means trying to live my life according to the teachings of Gods word.
    ------------
    Is it a ceiling or a floor?
    -------------
    It is the beginning of responsibilities to my fellow man.
    When God saves a persons soul, God instills in them the same love he has for mankind and then they too desire to see others saved by Gods grace.
    -------------------
    Does accepting Christ in this way require ongoing commitments other than reaffirmation.
    ------------------------
    I did not accept Christ. He accepted me when I met his condition of repentence.

    Reaffirmation is a catholic doctrine that is unscriptual.

    Once a person is saved by the grace of God he cannot become unsaved.
    Jesus said you must be born again by the spirit. It is a spiritual birth.
    You cannot undo a birth.

    I was born into this world the son of my parents, and no matter what comes or goes, regardless of what I do, when I die I'll still be the son of my parents. You cannot change or undo a birth.

    When a christian backslides because of the lust of his or her flesh, We are comanded to repent to God, and trun from living ungodly.
    It may be hard to understand, but when God saves a persons soul, it is the responsibility of the christian to bring our body or Adam nature under control and live as God would be pleased.

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  26. Observant:

    Thanks for your reply.
    Although I am a Jew (and like you being forever the son of your parents), which fact will always be true, I have not yet found the "kernel" of faith necessary to believe that there is a God. Since I continue to look for it after all these years, I suppose that faith might yet take root, but until now, it has not. Therefore, I suppose I must be considered an agnostic.
    But... even if there is a God, I see no evidence that a creator has any ongoing interest in His/Her/Its creation (as the Bible, the Koran, etc tell us He does) let alone the worship and observance of "the Law" demanded by the "jealous" God of the Torah, or being "born again" in Christ demanded by the "loving" God of the New Testament in order not to be "separated from God" in the hereafter or to avoid being damned for all eternity.
    Repeating what scripture and your current pastor tells you is "the will of God" cannot be construed as real evidence to anyone who does not already believe in those things. Therefore, I contend that Christian "apology" is simply the speaker's effort to convince himself and his co-believers that he has it "right"; it is highly unlikely to change anyone else's mind. If you are thoroughly sure about your faith (as I believe you are) there should be no need for "apology" or active proselytizing, outside of your church or other church centered activities, UNLESS queried by an interested outsider. All attempts to impose "Christian" virtues or ideals upon the public, other than by "bearing witness" by personal example or by taking part in open, free elections (i.e. insisting upon public displays of The Ten Commandments, moments of prayer, Creches on public property, etc.) should, in my opinion, go against the saying "render unto Caesar...."
    Finally, I must tell you that Jews, in general, either don't recognize the historical reality of Jesus, let alone that he fulfilled the prophecies of a Messiah from the Old Testament.
    The only "evidence" for his Messiahship is what is written in the New Testament and, although you and other Christians may see this as a true account of events that may have taken place as reported therein, there is no reliable other evidence for its validity. It is fair to say that the large majority of people in the world regard the Bible as a series of stories intended to illustrate some wise ways for people to deal with each other, mixed in with a large quantity of commandments about how to "live" with a deity who may or may not actually exist.

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  27. i'm agnostic. i don't claim to know the answer to the god question either way. and i think for anyone to say they KNOW whether or not there is a god isn't true. everyone THINKS they are right about what they believe, but nobody truly KNOWS.

    what some people don't understand is that there is nothing wrong with just thinking you are right. we can't prove if there is a god or not so any idea about "god's" existence is just a matter of opinion.

    i don't doubt that christians know they feel something they think is god, but they don't actually know whether it is god. and if it is in fact "god", they don't know if it's the god that is described in the bible or some other concept of god.

    i think atheists feel the same thing christians call god, but attribute it to something different. like maybe a sense of inner peace or a strong emotion.

    i think my personal transformation was probably very similar to observant's. mine just didn't come about from going to church or praying. and instead of asking "god" to forgive me i forgave myself. i learned to have love and acceptance for who i am. i came to terms with my flaws. i made an effort to change the flaws in my character and embrace those that are physical and no longer see them as flaws, but as part of me.

    and who knows, maybe "god" is personal growth, self love and self acceptance? i think that is a god everybody would want to believe in.

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  28. Observant, you say, "There is nothing a person can do about being born again until God draws them to himself."

    Once again, you guys trying to have it both ways.

    Either that or you are redefining the word 'nothing'.

    Your 'free-will' and 'choice' goes straight in the 'recycle bin' if the 'great game of life' is rigged in this fashion.


    You say, "pboy said,How I came to realise that there were no gods!"?"

    Now your not reading what I wrote.

    You go on, "--------------------------
    I know how you came to it.
    The greatest deception that ever took place was when the devil convinced the world he did not exist. Philosophy 101 sealed it for you."

    But you just finished saying that God comes to you and NOT the other way around.

    There's some compartmentalized thinking, some self-confusion right there.

    Paraphrasing Kevin Spacey's character in the movie 'The Usual Suspects' is ridiculous!

    Geez, Observant, you're a Republican 'free market' type aren't you?

    Everything else being equal in the 'free market' the ruthless, underhanded, usurous, mean, cut-throat etc. is going to 'win' every time.

    How could an honest 'God-fearing' fair business-man compete with people who are 'all-about-money'?

    In other words, the 'free market' is driven by greed, by avarice, by evil, therefore, by Satan(if you personify evil).

    Now, Observant, if you reply, "So what, socialism is driven by evil too!", that is a childish argument because it doesn't make the 'free market' any LESS evil, and you DO 'support' THAT evil, right?

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  29. Richelle:
    Of course it is a valid solution to life's uncertaincies and our inability to know what the future holds to look within for "permission" to behave as our intelligence and innate "moral" sense tells us to do! People who are at peace with their personal world view and expectations for the rest of their lives (as well as with not knowing for sure what will happen when they die) neither need nor want others to tell them they have it "right". Believers, on the other hand, even those who seem sure of their beliefs, often need to be continually reassured that they are on the right track with God to achieve a heavenly reward or to avoid what they are told will be the outcome if they are not "saved". To this end, they tend to seek the company of those who agree with them and to need to constantly try to convince everyone else of the "rightness' of their beliefs. To me, the acid test as to whether or not your personal manner of living and having (or not having) a proper relationship with the deity of your choice is whether you are at peace with yourself emotionally. As long as you are not losing sleep over your life choices, it seems to me that you are on "the right track".

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  30. To me, the acid test as to whether or not your personal manner of living and having (or not having) a proper relationship with the deity of your choice is whether you are at peace with yourself emotionally.

    -----------------

    exactly harvey.

    i am very comfortable with my ideas about "god" and life so i don't need a support group (church) to make me feel okay. a lot of religious people might say that i should be worried about how i'm living my life and what's gonna happen to me when i die, but i'm not. i don't think hell exists and i don't know if there is any kind of after-life. and if people just die and that's the end, then there isn't anything i can do to change that.

    i got pregnant with my son when i was 18 and i wasn't married to the father. according to christianity, that is a sin and i should ask forgiveness from god for my sin. but my son is one of the best things to happen to me and i refuse to apologize for him.

    so christians would say that i will go to hell because i won't ask "god" to forgive me for creating the very thing that made be a better person. that makes no sense to me!

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  31. I'd like your opinion on this, Observant.

    A lot of Christians claim, probably you too, that claims of God are NOT scientific claims.

    Evidence for God is NOT scientific evidence.

    For example, using the Bible as 'evidence for God' is simply not scientific, it is not 'reproducible evidence'.

    Compare Biblical evidence to the evidence for Newton's law of gravity.

    One could take the measurements, do the math, voila!

    But Biblical evidence is 'revealed' evidence which, because it is evidence revealed by God is circular evidence OF God.

    In other words you have to presume the reality of God to imagine that the Bible is 'God's word'.

    I understand that you 'get around this' by saying that God 'revealed' HIMSELF to you personally.

    (or as you might put it, 'revealed' HIMSELF "UNTO" you personally."

    (About that, you using this "Biblical" 'unto' and such, makes me cringe, imagining that you think that that way of speaking is 'Godly', because that was just the way that they happened to speak English at that time when King James comissioned that translation. There is nothing 'Godly' or more 'true' about Shakespeare's plays because he 'talked' like that, right?)

    I think that guys like you imagine that because people like me rely on scientific evidence and NOT 'Biblical' evidence that science is OPPOSED to the Abrahamic religions.

    The evidence for this is all over the internet, folk opposing evolution, geology, physics, etc. or at least saying that, "Where scientific evidence goes against 'Biblical truth' then it is 'bad science'.

    Would you say that all that was accurate?

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  32. "Cheer up Bwian. Ya know what they say...some things in life are bad they can really make you mehd, other things just make you sweah and churse."

    THEIST
    -----------------------------------

    You all stink.
    You're all wrong.
    Atheism is evil.
    Think about it. Atheism makes you stupid.
    In the first chapter of "The Gospel According to Hitchens" Hitchens drinks Scotch. Dumb.

    Rutherford B. Hayes :-)

    Watcha think Brian? Did I do ok, or is it just "good enough for government work?"

    Peace.

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  33. You've done well, oneblood. I think that sums it up nicely. :-)

    Thanks for stopping by.

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  34. Always look on the bright side of life, oneblood. De-dum, da dum da dum de dum....

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  35. Npboy,

    You're right about the circular reasoning. For me, I'm not trying to get around anything in terms of the bible. I don't know if Observant would say the same thing.

    The unscientific-ness of the bible is two-fold. One, in that there are, physically impossible things going on; and two, the claims made in the bible that have nothing to do with social, or cultural ideas.

    My answer for saying that I'm a Creationist is not scientific, nor do I pretend it is in front of other Christians. I choose to believe it despite it's absurdity, despite it's violence, and despite it's inaccuracy -though to be fair to some of the writers, they had no idea that their writing was going to be stuck in some book whose adherents claimed its utter perfection to the last detail-.

    All the "true" reasons are what Shermer calls the "god of the gaps." With which I'm sure you're all too familiar.

    My reasons are many but the only scientific ones are the psychological ones, meaning, what the paradoxes, the philosophies, and the prayer does for me and others.

    I would like to stress that someone like Dawkins and other more hardcore anti-theists miss the point. They're too busy trying to convince someone they're wrong when what it does for them psychologically is so significant (quantitatively not qualitatively).

    I think Observant and I believe for the same reasons, it's just that he/she does not want to see faith for what it is. Something that might not be true.

    To be blunt, part of my faith is heterodoxy. Which might be why I hang out with all sorts of people who don't remotely believe like I do. But I don't want to judge Observant because I don't know where he/she's at. I've never walked in a mile in those moccasins.

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  36. Oneblood:

    A truly refreshing and, I believe, totally honest post!!
    It seems, therefore, that you can see why some unbelievers are "anti-theist" rather than simply atheist or agnostic. If, as you say, you recognize that your belief is just that, a belief, which obviously works for you and some others in positive ways, I suspect that you do not require constant reaffirmation that you "have it right", especially not to the extent that you need to coerce or force people who do not have the same beliefs to accept yours.
    When "believers" understand that our Constitution is not only about freedom to worship as one sees fit without undue interference from the government or anyone else, but also about freedom from worship, perhaps certain Christians will no longer need to insert religious beliefs into science classrooms, to force people to accept their view of "when life begins" as a matter of law, or to insist upon some recognition of their God during public, non religious activities, etc.

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  37. pboy said.
    In other words you have to presume the reality of God to imagine that the Bible is 'God's word'.
    -------------------
    If the bible was the only source then the believers would cave in as soon as persecution came along.

    But the fact still remains that God reveals himself to a person when he saves their soul.
    You are looking for scientific evidence to support the existance of God. The evidence is not with the observation of the eyes, but of the heart / soul.
    You have to remember God is eternal
    Spiritual.

    The scriptures declare his works but if you are an unbeliever then why trouble yourself with a notion you consider false?

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  38. Observant:
    Please see my last post, above.
    Non-believers, like me, may be interested in Scripture for any number of reasons; 1)Some of us are still open to the possibility that God exists, even if we have not "found" him yet. 2) Many of us are besieged by the efforts of believers to "awaken" or convert us. Scripture is, as you say, not the only source (albeit the primary one) for proselytizers' arguments towards those of us they hope to "enlighten". 3) With all its faults and obvious inaccuracies, Scripture remains a good source of ideas for "ethical" behavior and certain life decisions, even without reference to those parts that deal with Man's relationship with God or the possibile afterlife. It has, in my opinion, much to say about successful relationshipds with one's fellow man.

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  39. Observant:
    Please see my last post, above.
    Non-believers, like me, may be interested in Scripture for any number of reasons; 1)Some of us are still open to the possibility that God exists, even if we have not "found" him yet. 2) Many of us are besieged by the efforts of believers to "awaken" or convert us. Scripture is, as you say, not the only source (albeit the primary one) for proselytizers' arguments towards those of us they hope to "enlighten". 3) With all its faults and obvious inaccuracies, Scripture remains a good source of ideas for "ethical" behavior and certain life decisions, even without reference to those parts that deal with Man's relationship with God or the possibile afterlife. It has, in my opinion, much to say about successful relationshipds with one's fellow man.

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  40. Observant, you say, "But the fact still remains that God reveals himself to a person when he saves their soul."

    Fact?

    You go on, "You are looking for scientific evidence to support the existance of God."

    I know that there is none.

    You continue, " The evidence is not with the observation of the eyes, but of the heart / soul.
    You have to remember God is eternal
    Spiritual."

    My heart pumps blood, it does not 'see' evidence.

    The 'soul' is as magical as miracles.

    I don't 'have to remember' anything about an 'eternal' and/or 'spiritual' God.

    There are no gods, not even one.

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  41. No pboy, you do not know if God exist or not.
    You only believe he doesn't,there is a difference.

    Your heart pumbs blood indeed.
    I was refering to the soul,also known as the heart according to scripture.

    The bible said - with the heart man believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

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  42. No pboy, you do not know if God exist or not.
    You only believe he doesn't,there is a difference.

    Your heart pumbs blood indeed.
    I was refering to the soul,also known as the heart according to scripture.

    The bible said - with the heart man believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

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  43. Observant, you say, "No pboy, you do not know if God exist or not.
    You only believe he doesn't,there is a difference."

    I know that there are no gods at all for the same reason that you KNOW that every other god except yours doesn't exist.

    I know that there are no gods because no matter how hard anyone prays events take their natural course.

    I know that there are no gods because it would be obvious to everyone, every single one of us that there was a god or gods if it were true that there were a god or gods.

    This wouldn't 'take away free-will' or 'choice' at all, it would simply be a question of whether or not to 'follow', 'worship' etc. the 'real' god.

    If God(or the gods) were real, there would be no question of whether or not HE(they) existed at all.

    Now if you use the Bible as evidence for God and in defence of the existence of God then you are admitting that you are confused.

    You are admitting that God is not good.

    You are declaring that you KNOW 'good and evil' and that 'Godly' is 'good'.

    How many vile, evil, prideful, lustful, avaricious, gluttonous, slothful, jealous, angry, selfish acts do groups of people have to commit with 'Godly' intentions for you to see that 'Godly' intentions are not 'good' intentions at all?

    The 9/11 tragedy happened for 'Godly' intentions, Observant.

    I understand that you feel that the 9/11 attackers were under false 'directions', that theirs were 'FALSE Godly' intentions.

    We can say the same for the Jews in the Gospel stories, they were under 'FALSE Godly' intentions.

    I guess we could say the same for those who vote Republican with 'Godly' intentions.

    Men and women grieving for those that might have been(aborted fetuses), praying for the criminalization of abortion, imagining that they are not endangering the lives of women who WILL have illegal, unsafe abortions, ironically, by far, mostly religious women.

    But, if these women weren't 'allowed' to have abortions, this same political party, being against a social safety net would abandon these million children to the 'care' of the 'free market' and 'global economy'!

    Now please, Observant, don't imagine that 'good' Christians would take care of unwanted children because you guys just don't do that, now do you?

    There are about half a million crazy people wandering the streets of America right now and you feel NO compassion for them, and THAT is a fact, isn't it Observant?

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  44. harvey said:

    "Believers, on the other hand, even those who seem sure of their beliefs, often need to be continually reassured that they are on the right track with God to achieve a heavenly reward or to avoid what they are told will be the outcome if they are not "saved". To this end, they tend to seek the company of those who agree with them and to need to constantly try to convince everyone else of the "rightness' of their beliefs."


    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    You hit the nail on the head...

    Religion is man-made therapy for humans who need to be reassured that they are not irrelevant within the human race. Religion gathers other weak-minded humans together to declare that they are relevant because they all believe in the same irrelevant belief. When we feel that we are not loved, not wanted, not needed all it takes is someone who feels just like us to gather us in and give us what we can only give ourselves. Like
    Richelle stated - "self love and self acceptance" is the key to inner peace.

    I could say to you, until you accept yourself - you will never be a true human being. It is within that you find peace - not without. And when you go "looking" for the answers from others - you will never find it within yourself. Why would you have to?


    People like observant have found peace from a place outside themselves and they are fine with that. It is the thought that it is their true spirit's wishes to know and accept a god deity, that without this acceptance from this god deity they are somehow less than they could be.

    The truth is, we are humans. Belief in a deity will not change that the fact that the choices we make are ours alone.

    Religion is a feel-good alternative for those who are unable to look inside themselves and find true peace that can only come from within.

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  45. Observant said:

    "There is nothing a person can do about being born again until God draws them to himself."

    If that's the case, then God has been ignoring me and my "sins" for 47 years. Like I said before: your god is an evil puppet master.

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